When Bible Software Marketing Crosses a Theological Line

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Posts 5
Brian Schmucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 1:25 PM

To be fair, I should add not everyone is rude.  Most are not actually.  I'm more concerned/irritated by what I sense is a pushy marketing strategy which is coming through.  I do appreciate you all and hope I wasn't too critical.  I do think the concern is valid though and worth serious consideration of a revamped approach. 

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 4:44 PM

Brian Schmucker:

... after feeling like a piece of meat once again ...

Ouch!

Posts 5251
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 7:17 PM

Steve:

Brian Schmucker:

... after feeling like a piece of meat once again ...

Ouch!

Unfortunately some FL representatives are better than others. I am sorry that the person Brian spoke with made him feel that way. I have been on the phone with some like that too... I personally prefer to deal via email for that reason (although the gentleman I deal with now is pretty good, I still prefer to do email). 

-Dan

Posts 5
Brian Schmucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 9:21 PM

I should probably clarify on that comment.   I called to get some info/understanding on a product I already owned but it wasn't long before I got the seguae into 'the benefits of upgrading ...'  When he asked me point blank and realized I wasn't planning to buy anything it felt like the fake smile and 'we're done here'.   No rude comments, just irritating to sense getting professionally blown off when it was clear I wasn't going to buy.

No idea of the sales compensation structure at Logos but maybe kill the 'commission' approach so they can concentrate on servicing with no strings attached.   Can't blame people for wanting to feed their families but the reputation of Logos isn't being helped in my opinion when it feels like they are being trained to never let a caller off the phone before giving them the opportunity to upgrade.   The majority seem like very good people so it feels more like something they are being trained to do.  

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 10:39 PM

I have not found the sales people very knowledgeable about the details of a product. I'd suggest that the forums are a better source of most detailed product information although there are times when a product manager or other Faithlife employee has details known only to the creators of the resource.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2834
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 7:54 AM

MJ. Smith:
I'd suggest that the forums are a better source of most detailed product information

I tend to agree with you, MJ, but this begs the question of the real nature of having non-employee volunteers carry your water for you (in terms of product support).

The forums should be a value-added feature for a premium software package like Logos. Instead, they are the primary means of support for many, or so it seems. I really think this is a major Achilles-type heel in the Faithlife marketing and product plan. It bothers me a lot, as you can tell from my signature.

In spite of Bob's posts on not having a manual, written documentation would take a major load off the support folks at Faithlife, and would make the company look much more interested in real customer service than they look now.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 8:14 AM

Doc ... you're definitely right.   Just this morning I was amused (and grateful) to read on the forum how one could re-base the selected book in the new L6 harmony.  

The amusement was that so many features in Logos go unnoticed due to the documentation being so fragmented (if indeed this specific feature was ever described).   Just yesterday, preparing for a trip, I had our car's PDF manual out, to check if the USB was powered ... so refreshing to just read a manual.


Posts 5
Brian Schmucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 10:12 AM

I don't have any doubt the people at Logos work day and night to produce a great product.  I think its fair to say its impossible to train employees to know the details of thousands of products they offer.  Most probably have less training than the people they service which is why the forums may be a good solution for now.  Maybe team up with a few good websites to provide some links to the actual products might be nice too.  

As far as software features I think the tutorials Logos offer are very good but pail in comparison to the best they have to offer which is the MP Seminars courses & materials.  If you haven't attended a seminar I can almost assure you you're at 50% or less efficiency on how you use it.  Bold statement, but when pastor after pastor walks away from the first lunch break on day 1 of the training and says 'I already got my money's worth', I think it speaks volumes.   I don't work for them but the training is good enough I pay the money to go annually now ... and then use the features/shortcuts customized to the way I do work the entire year.  That's my thoughts.  Hope its helpful.

Posts 5
Brian Schmucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 10:17 AM

MP Seminars probably has the manual you're looking for.

Posts 10232
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 10:25 AM

Of course, Brian, you might wonder why pastor after pastor comments so heartily at the first lunch ... the available information about Logos is that poor?


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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 10:38 AM

The real point of the Manual thing is no matter how great MP is it should not need to be done. A person may well benefit from a driving course. But to borrow Denise's example further one shouldn't need to go to a course to learn all the features of ones car. I have said before and will say again the help system in Verbum/Logos offers most of what a manual needs to be and just needs a little polishing and fleshing out to make it very good.

-dan

Posts 18712
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 1:03 PM

Dan Francis:
The real point of the Manual thing is no matter how great MP is it should not need to be done.

I always had a bad gut feeling about there being a need for a Camp Logos from the very first year it was introduced (can't remember when that was, but I think back in the 90s). Logos did used to come with a thin printed manual, but it was always done by a third party and was never very good. And they ditched it as of Logos 3. I have attended a Camp Logos with MP, and he is indeed a great instructor. By the time I attended it, though, I'd already been an MVP for a while and knew the software very well, so I didn't learn much that was new to me, but a couple of things I did learn.

There's no substitute for long experience using the product to learn it well. But I do agree that a good user's manual provided for free with the software would be a big help for many users in getting started on this learning curve. On the other hand, I also understand that the cost of printing a paper user's manual in an era where a huge percentage of users prefer online documentation might not be warranted. But maybe a Logos resource that is an in-depth user's manual, to go above and beyond what's provided in the Help file, including screenshots and all, would be a blessing. It would be costly to produce and it would be tricky to get it right and time the completion to release dates, but it is a goal that Faithlife should aim towards.

Posts 468
Charlene | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 6:11 PM

Rosie Perera:

But I do agree that a good user's manual provided for free with the software would be a big help for many users in getting started on this learning curve. On the other hand, I also understand that the cost of printing a paper user's manual in an era where a huge percentage of users prefer online documentation might not be warranted. But maybe a Logos resource that is an in-depth user's manual, to go above and beyond what's provided in the Help file, including screenshots and all, would be a blessing. It would be costly to produce and it would be tricky to get it right and time the completion to release dates, but it is a goal that Faithlife should aim towards.

This is what is indeed needed, an in-depth manual that is provided free with the software! If the cost is too high to print, then provide a digital manual that can be downloaded and then the individual can determine if they want to print it out or not.  I don't understand why it hasn't been done before now. It is a need. Users have been saying it for a long time.

Charlene

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 8:09 PM

Although the development process in favour at Faithlife belays the concept of a finished software product, there are components of Verbum/Logos that essentially reach a finished status. I would suggest that no component be moved from beta to shipping/stable release status until full documentation has been produced for it.

Dan Francis:
...one shouldn't need to go to a course to learn all the features...

I heartily agree, document the features properly and build the cost into the price of the product. This is something every user needs.

Additional training for how to use a feature properly is also nice, but it is an option and thus warrants an extra charge to those who want or need it.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 8:45 PM

Back in Logos 2.0 Level 4 there was an electronic version of a user manual. I find the ad copy on the box rather amusing.

  • Electronic User’s Guide: Better than help files, we have actually made our user’s guide into a real electronic book! Forget frustrating help file indices, now you can search your entire user’s guide for all occurrences  of any word or subject.

If it is better than a help file, why the regression?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 18712
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 9 2015 11:44 PM

Super.Tramp:

Back in Logos 2.0 Level 4 there was an electronic version of a user manual. I find the ad copy on the box rather amusing.

  • Electronic User’s Guide: Better than help files, we have actually made our user’s guide into a real electronic book! Forget frustrating help file indices, now you can search your entire user’s guide for all occurrences  of any word or subject.

If it is better than a help file, why the regression?

Good point!

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