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Posts 248
Patrick Rietveld | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 3:57 AM

Jack Caviness:

I'm not George, but I did use BDAG from the beginning. In face, we were forbidden to use anything like the glosses (Logos was not available then). They will only limit your ability to really learn the language.

Interesting. When I started to learn (classical) Greek at secondary school, I started with little texts and wordlists. I bought my dictionary after two years of classes. Not BDAG, btw. That wouldn't work, since it is not classical Greek and I was not able to read this German dictionary. I started to use BDAG at university.

Posts 248
Patrick Rietveld | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 4:01 AM

Jack Caviness:

I'm not George, but I did use BDAG from the beginning. In face, we were forbidden to use anything like the glosses (Logos was not available then). They will only limit your ability to really learn the language.

When I learned English at secondary school, we started to use a dictionary after 4 years of classes. Using an English dictionary caused a lot of unnatural language. Using a dictionary really limited my ability to learn the language well.

Posts 1545
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 5:23 AM

I've been considering to purchase the NA28 with apparatus. I am happy when the glosses are not there.

But the question is does it have any added value when I already have the NA27 and the CNTTS?

I have BDAG, but I also find https://www.logos.com/product/5773/vocabulary-of-the-greek-testament very useful, although it takes time to wade it. Any opinions?

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 5:47 AM

Veli Voipio:
But the question is does it have any added value when I already have the NA27 and the CNTTS?

You may find some elements of answer here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/97940/675324.aspx#675324

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 6:27 AM

Patrick Rietveld:

George Somsel:

Because you should use a lexicon, such as BDAG (precisely this one).

George, when you started learning Greek for the first time in your life, did you start using BDAG?

No.  BDAG wasn't available.  I used it's predecessor, BAG which was the predecessor of BAGD which is what I bought when I started using Logos.

I should correct that.  I started using BAG when I started reading NT, but I began studying classical (Plato, Homer, Xenophon, etc) so I used the "Middle Liddell" which you can get from Logos.  Occasionally I would go to the library to consult the big megillah—Liddell-Scott-Jones (which was not the same as offered by Logos since it has been supplemented since then).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 790
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 8:01 AM

Thanks for mentioning this. I'd like to get the NA28 one day.

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 8:16 AM

BDAG is an excellent tool. However, different lexical resources serve different purposes. When the purpose is to read (quickly) and get a sense of the flow (as opposed to slowly, parsing, analyzing syntax, etc) glosses allow to quickly check an unfamiliar or forgotten word. 

What is nice with good, expanded lexical resources is that you get information such as use with specific prepositions, cases and different usages. But imagine yourself learning English and encountering the verb "to get" and not knowing what it is. Reading through the long list of uses in a thorough dictionary is more likely to give you headache and discourage you than to help you "get" it. 

Beyond thorough lexica, there are also theological lexical resources which are for another kind of query yet.

So shorter propositions can be of use as well. But I can see why it may seem to some "unscholarly". The question is this: if you don't need to look up the word, what does it matter to you that glosses appear? If you already know the word, ignore it. If you don't trust glosses, what keeps you from going to BDAG or whatever other lexicon you think is the Authorized Version even if you see the gloss? 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 8:46 AM

Francis:

BDAG is an excellent tool. However, different lexical resources serve different purposes. When the purpose is to read (quickly) and get a sense of the flow (as opposed to slowly, parsing, analyzing syntax, etc) glosses allow to quickly check an unfamiliar or forgotten word. 

What is nice with good, expanded lexical resources is that you get information such as use with specific prepositions, cases and different usages. But imagine yourself learning English and encountering the verb "to get" and not knowing what it is. Reading through the long list of uses in a thorough dictionary is more likely to give you headache and discourage you than to help you "get" it. 

Beyond thorough lexica, there are also theological lexical resources which are for another kind of query yet.

So shorter propositions can be of use as well. But I can see why it may seem to some "unscholarly". The question is this: if you don't need to look up the word, what does it matter to you that glosses appear? If you already know the word, ignore it. If you don't trust glosses, what keeps you from going to BDAG or whatever other lexicon you think is the Authorized Version even if you see the gloss? 

It builds up the mental and study músculos.  As they say, "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger."  Get into the habit of daily exercise.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 248
Patrick Rietveld | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 11:39 AM

George Somsel:

I should correct that.  I started using BAG when I started reading NT, but I began studying classical (Plato, Homer, Xenophon, etc) so I used the "Middle Liddell" which you can get from Logos.  Occasionally I would go to the library to consult the big megillah—Liddell-Scott-Jones (which was not the same as offered by Logos since it has been supplemented since then).

Cool. So you immediately jumped into those classical text without any other help than a grammar and Liddell? No other textbook?

I am teaching classical Latin at a secondary school. The method we have doesn't use a dictionary for the first three years. In the fourth year they start to use a dictionary. The Latin-Dutch dictionary is great (much better than Lewis and Short in my opinion), but the schoolkids (age 15 years) hate it. There is so much information in the dictionary that they just get drowned in it and completely freeze. I don't think starting with this dictionary from the first year would help them.

Patrick

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 6 2015 11:47 AM

Patrick Rietveld:

George Somsel:

I should correct that.  I started using BAG when I started reading NT, but I began studying classical (Plato, Homer, Xenophon, etc) so I used the "Middle Liddell" which you can get from Logos.  Occasionally I would go to the library to consult the big megillah—Liddell-Scott-Jones (which was not the same as offered by Logos since it has been supplemented since then).

Cool. So you immediately jumped into those classical text without any other help than a grammar and Liddell? No other textbook?

I am teaching classical Latin at a secondary school. The method we have doesn't use a dictionary for the first three years. In the fourth year they start to use a dictionary. The Latin-Dutch dictionary is great (much better than Lewis and Short in my opinion), but the schoolkids (age 15 years) hate it. There is so much information in the dictionary that they just get drowned in it and completely freeze. I don't think starting with this dictionary from the first year would help them.

Patrick

You amaze me that you are using a Latin-Dutch dictionary in Tanzania.  My initial reaction was to think that you were in the Netherlands.  This reminds me of what I heard years ago regarding C. S. Lewis.  I understand that when he was in school he was studying the Greek classics (I forget precisely which author) he was allowed a pony (For those of you in Rio Lindo, a "pony" is a translation [kind of like an interlinear except it isn't between the lines]), but the pony was in Latin.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 248
Patrick Rietveld | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 7 2015 6:07 AM

Haha, I should update my profile. I am still a Translation consultant and working in Tanzania (and Zambia). But that is only part of the story. Most of the time I am living in the Netherlands, teaching at a secondary school. So I am not using this latin dictionary in Tanzania. I am using BDAG in Tanzania (and at home). Talking about the BDAG. I had the big and heavy German hardcopy, which didn't invite me to use it. Logos helped me using BDAG a lot. 

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