Base Packages for Laity

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This post has 14 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 257
John C Connell Jr. | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 9 2015 4:45 AM

Many Logos users are not trained in Greek and Hebrew, yet are students of God's word and want to grow spiritually using Logos.  The Packages contain a majority of resources that are focused for Seminary trained pastors.  Why not develop Packages that are heavy on commentaries, dictionaries, maps, sermons, timelines, and the like but not overloaded with Greek and Hebrew specific data sets and resources.  I often feel like I am paying a premium price for resources I can never use no matter how wonderful they are.

Be strong and courageous. . . for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 5:47 AM

have you considered any of the starter packages? starter standard only has two greek resources - a greek bible, and apparatus.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 257
John C Connell Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 7:44 AM

I began with Logos 4 Scholar's Package and cross graded to Logos 5 and Logos 6.  I seem to lose ground each time.  For instance to use the Atlas I would need to upgrade even more to Bronze, Silver or Gold.

If I were a new user, I could easily buy Gold for what I have invested so far, but I don't even have the features of Bronze.  Grrr.

Be strong and courageous. . . for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.

Posts 1079
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 8:02 AM

I believe this would be very useful for lots of people. I wonder if Logos hasn't done this because they believe (or have found through experience) that the target buyer for a "lay" package would be less likely to continue buying add-on products. If so, I suspect that it's no longer true now that the Vyrso catalog has expanded.

The current "starter" package makes sense for someone who has at least some interest in original language word studies and is likely to upgrade through the Bronze/Silver/Gold/... path. But I personally know far more people who have a deep love for the Bible, but whose study will always be done in English.

I imagine a package that doesn't have the Greek Bible, Greek or Hebrew lexicons, or reverse interlinears.  There are other more academic resources that could be pruned - does a entry level lay package really need three systematic theologies?  Instead, I see it including more English language resources that are accessible to someone who doesn't have any formal theological training.  Some could even be Vyrso resources.  But I would envision the bookshelf of a really good lay Sunday-school teacher who has no knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, and build it around that.

Posts 10871
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 9:14 AM

I'm not sure there's a distinction between the 'laity' and Piper's professionals at Gotham City HQ.  

Logos also doesn't have a good package for 'academics' that aren't academically enrolled either. So, greek or no greek, the end result is the same.

And reading Dorothy's posts (welcome, Dorothy!!), it's interesting to see how that angle plays out too.  Personally I think the FaithLife resources, plus the IVP packages are far more useful than the Logos packages (and affordable too).

This is just a guess, but I'd bet when the old Libronix box packages went the way of Christian bookstores, nothing really stepped in as a solid affordable and most importantly 'marketed' choice for folks new to Logos.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 32
Dorothy Pollock | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 9:56 AM

Thanks. Yes, I agree with this thread of course ;=)

I can see the point with the idea that we would not continue to buy, however, I believe we will as I have already added a 2 volume commentary and 2 individual volumes of a multi volume commentary whose full set is beyond my budget. I will buy as I am reading or doing a study and build a library over time. I can buy because I did not spend so much on things I will never use. It frees my budget for other resources.

I understand that this is really geared towards biblical teachers, pastors and scholars and I respect the need to keep that focus. People have invested thousands of dollars in this product. I just think LOGOS would be well served to tap into the group that really loves to study the bible and is learning and wants to be a part of a community that elevates this study to a level that online groups and googling things do not.

I cannot afford the Gold Level and it truly would be such overkill for me. I do not have any use of original languages. I sure wish I did but a quick look at a video on the Greek Alphabet made me realize that was probably not going to happen!

I always hesitate to say things like this as it can be easy to come across as some folks do when they buy say Adobe PhotoShopElements and then complain it does not do all the cool things that the full very expensive PhotoShop does. That is not my intention and I hope it does not come across that way.

I love the software and also the forums as I even learn hear listening to people discuss problems with features.
Thanks for the mention of IVP...I am going to look at those resources as well.

A friend of mine used to tag his posts on my ISP's Forums with a Plato quote: One asks, many answer, all learn... Plato on the Forum

Seems fitting here as well. 

Posts 932
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 9:57 AM

I will not admit how long I took producing this.

I think that realistically, you would need the price point of Silver, but with all of the datasets of gold, with the resources included adjusted down to compensate for the addition of the added features. I think if you get all of the datasets at the silver price point, the average the value of the books in silver and bronze ($7000) is fair for resources. I would just make it a modified Silver (which has an original value of $8369.18 - so you are trading 1400 in resources for data sets).

To achieve this, I would throw out the alphabet tutors, cantillations and morphology charts (value down to 8349.38). I would get rid of the Greek Bibles, Apparatuses and Morphologies (leaving only the interlinears for a new value of 7910.93). I would drop Lenski's Commentary and the Socio-Rhetorical Commentary from the Critical/Exegetical Section - 7411.03. From classic commentaries, I would drop Simeon and Keil (new value 6801.13). I'd drop the Lexham wordbook and glossary, and for the Lexicons, I would only keep Liddel for Greek and BDB for Hebrew (new value 6478.48). All of the grammars are out (6350.83). Drop all of the systematic theologies except Ryrie and the Christian Minister's Manual. The total remaining value is 5849.29.

If you add the NIVAC ($949.99) and Grudem's systematic theology ($39.95), you have just over $150 to add to get to the 7k marker, which I would fill out with Vyrso or PD books. Ta Da! "English Bible Silver is a resource targeted to Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and other Bible students who want to take advantage of all of the new features of Logos 6, but lack the ability to use Hebrew or Greek. Geared toward teaching and practical application, this base package is an excellent value, and an alternative to a feature crossgrade for existing customers."

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 10:16 AM

Justin Gatlin:

I will not admit how long I took producing this......

If you add the NIVAC ($949.99) and Grudem's systematic theology ($39.95), you have just over $150 to add to get to the 7k marker, which I would fill out with Vyrso or PD books. Ta Da! "English Bible Silver is a resource targeted to Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and other Bible students who want to take advantage of all of the new features of Logos 6, but lack the ability to use Hebrew or Greek. Geared toward teaching and practical application, this base package is an excellent value, and an alternative to a feature crossgrade for existing customers."

I don't know how long it took you, but that was an excellent post :-)  The only thing I don't know is whether what FL assigns as value has any bearing on what is considered to be "real life" value?  Could they just do exactly as you said and have a new package, or are things a little more complicated?

Posts 1079
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 10:28 AM

Denise:

This is just a guess, but I'd bet when the old Libronix box packages went the way of Christian bookstores, nothing really stepped in as a solid affordable and most importantly 'marketed' choice for folks new to Logos.

And that's a shame. My introduction to Logos was a Logos Library System package that I bought at the local Christian bookstore many years ago. It's not at all certain that I would have gone with Logos if the initial "price of entry" investment had been as large as it is now.

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 10:34 AM

With my first week's wages at age 18 I bought myself the New Bible Dictionary from IVP. In subsequent months I bought the New Bible Commentary, Strong's, an interlinear, a Study Bible, a Bible Atlas, and various other things like that - 30 years before I had any formal theological training. So I wouldn't agree that a "lay" (horrible and patronising word) package should exclude all original-language materials: you don't go far in studying Scripture before you need to start engaging with them on some level - I'd bought an interlinear and lexicon by my 19th birthday.

If I envisioned such a package it would probably include Reverse Interlinears, the basic lexicons mentioned above, the IVP Essential Reference Collection, either the Bible Speaks Today, the For Everyone series or the Tyndale commentaries, plus the SBL Greek New Testament (it's free anyway), and I would include the datasets like Psalms/Proverbs Explorer, and some of the interactives like the Weight & Measure Converter (I could never find that in a Study Bible when I needed it). I'd also include ESV Study Bible notes, the Logos Deluxe Maps set, and a few other devotional resources. If you don't include the basic tools for getting at what the words used are, you close off an avenue of growing in study. For me, it was realising that some understanding of grammar needed to be added to lexical studies to get at the meaning of the text that drove me to start learning Greek and Hebrew. For that reason I'd be inclined to include a basic Greek grammar. 

Otherwise, you could just add the IVP Reference Collection to the Starter package and add a few datasets. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 10:51 AM

It has been agued by myself and others that Logos should have a entry level program for under $100 (Preferably lower). We have been told that $300 is the set point do to costs of people calling in for help. It had been recently pointed out that the NAS Library was a great starter package at $49... but within days of this being pointed out FL raised the price to $299 before  removing it (people can find new CD's of it as cheap as $19, the last list price for it was $29.95). I am not a pastor but I am one of the small percentage of laity who will pay the price to get into Logos. Indeed I own Verbum Capstone and Anglican Gold. FL is not likely going to create an average church goer package anytime soon. In fact they have argued one can get the faithlife study package free and it has been pointed out that Lexham Bible is also free and with a free engine a user can theoretically get into Logos for nothing. That said there have been numerous people upset that one has to order the LEXHAM bible separately (indeed some even more upset that the KJV is not free).

So less than ideal one can purchase to a new account (free of charge):

Faithlife Study Bible

 Lexham Bible Dictionary

Lexham English Bible

 Connect the Testaments: A One-Year Daily Devotional with Bible Reading Plan

Download the Free Logos 6 Core Engine

This unfortunately is as close as you are going to come to a true FL starter package.

To that one can at for $3.95 Logos Deluxe Map Set by D. Thaine Norris and your favourite translation for likely $10-$40 (most translations are $10 but the odd one is more expensive ). This is not ideal but does offer an affordable way to dip ones toe into FL.

-Dan

PS: I believe if you sign up for FLSB via the mobile APP you only need to purchase the LEXHAM bible and other media resources like FL infographics/Media  are included free... although FL may have changed that

Posts 300
Bruce Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 12:45 PM

As a lay person that takes seriously the task of Bible study, I would agree that Logos doesn't have a very good entry point for us.  

Many years ago I lived on a competitors PC product and then one day saw the IVP Essentials CD which contained my favorite resources in a store on sale and purchased it.  It came with Logos 3 and once I installed that and then found some discounted CD's of mainly the Nelson resources in a bookstore I was well on the way down the slippery slope.

I have to say that I have an addiction to accumulating books; paper or ebook so Logos is not a very healthy habit to sustain.  Many years later, thousands of resources and dollars spent.  Not complaining. 

I would think that there is a significant number of users especially on the mobile app side that could be persuaded to build a small library of resources over time that would be of benefit to them if they could purchase good resources at a good price. 

I think a market to look at is those students at universities and colleges that are part of the parachurch groups, (IVCF, Cru, Navigators) and get those students who are serious about scripture introduced to the Logos environment.  Just like a discount for seminarians maybe a student discount like is offered for Microsoft and other software.  The concept is to get them young and hooked to using your software.

Just like any dealer of addictive products.

Posts 1079
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 1:28 PM

GregW:

With my first week's wages at age 18 I bought myself the New Bible Dictionary from IVP. In subsequent months I bought the New Bible Commentary, Strong's, an interlinear, a Study Bible, a Bible Atlas, and various other things like that - 30 years before I had any formal theological training. So I wouldn't agree that a "lay" (horrible and patronising word) package should exclude all original-language materials: you don't go far in studying Scripture before you need to start engaging with them on some level - I'd bought an interlinear and lexicon by my 19th birthday.

It sounds like you were the kind of person who would have been well served by the current Logos offerings. But there are many dedicated Christians who study the Bible all their lives without ever delving into the original languages. Logos doesn't really offer anything for them.

I don't believe anyone has intended to use the term "lay" in a pejorative fashion (I certainly haven't). It's just a (perhaps unfortunate) shorthand way of describing Christians who are not in the formal ministry or engaged in the academic study of the Bible.

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 9 2015 2:57 PM

EastTN:
I don't believe anyone has intended to use the term "lay" in a pejorative fashion (I certainly haven't). It's just a (perhaps unfortunate) shorthand way of describing Christians who are not in the formal ministry or engaged in the academic study of the Bible.
 

I also know plenty of pastors who have little interest in more in depth Bible study unfortunately. But I still maintain that the average Chrisitian in the pew of any church would benefit from Logos/Verbum. But as stated above many are not interested in original language studies they just want:

  • a Bible
  • a study Bible
  • maybe a commentary
  • a good Bible dictionary,
  • Lectionary (if their church follows one)
  • Devotional material and a reading plan,

Indeed I would suspect from the above user FL would get more sales of the larger Bible dictionaries like ANB/ISBE Rev/NIDB than many multi volume commentary series, but if you don;t have something that can offer the above you are less likely going to get people to want to take that big $300 plunge. 

-Dan

Posts 257
John C Connell Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 10 2015 4:56 AM

To achieve this, I would throw out the alphabet tutors, cantillations and morphology charts (value down to 8349.38). I would get rid of the Greek Bibles, Apparatuses and Morphologies (leaving only the interlinears for a new value of 7910.93). I would drop Lenski's Commentary and the Socio-Rhetorical Commentary from the Critical/Exegetical Section - 7411.03. From classic commentaries, I would drop Simeon and Keil (new value 6801.13). I'd drop the Lexham wordbook and glossary, and for the Lexicons, I would only keep Liddel for Greek and BDB for Hebrew (new value 6478.48). All of the grammars are out (6350.83). Drop all of the systematic theologies except Ryrie and the Christian Minister's Manual. The total remaining value is 5849.29.

If you add the NIVAC ($949.99) and Grudem's systematic theology ($39.95), you have just over $150 to add to get to the 7k marker, which I would fill out with Vyrso or PD books. Ta Da! "English Bible Silver is a resource targeted to Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and other Bible students who want to take advantage of all of the new features of Logos 6, but lack the ability to use Hebrew or Greek. Geared toward teaching and practical application, this base package is an excellent value, and an alternative to a feature crossgrade for existing customers."

This is a super plan Justin.  Well thought out.  I would like to have access to the Atlas feature and the three Logos Map sets.  Any cultural or historical resources would be useful too. I hope Logos takes notice.  So much of Logos is so wonderful, I just hate to pay such a high price for something I cannot use when I could use that money for the NIAVC or some other resource.

 

Be strong and courageous. . . for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.

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