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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 6:51 PM

Mark Barnes:
But, generally, you're right — and I would also much prefer that the new datasets were available to purchase.

Old Testament Propositonal Bible Outline 39.95

Greek Grammatical Constructions Dataset 14.95

Commandments of the Law 5.95

Visual Copy Templates 24.95

Author Slide Templates 24.95

Logos Stock Media vol. 24.95

Total cost if purchased seperately: $135.70

Monthly $8.95

No's 7 - 9 of Phil's post seem to be code only which will probably be released in an update of the engine. 

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 6:54 PM

John Goodman:
I'm not sure why it is free to download and use an iPad app or the desktop app but $8.99 a month to get the same online.

Actually the web app is just a part, perhaps a small part, of Logos NOW. Most of the benefit of Logos NOW is in access to the new features and data sets. So to say you must pay $8.99 a month for this app overlooks the fact that you are getting a lot more than that for the $8.99. (I'd have to have a very special reason to pay that much just for an online app.)

John Goodman:
I'm totally cool with the idea of paying for content but not so much the web app at least not on the basis that when I stop paying I loose access.

Yet the web app has to be paid for all the time by someone, since it requires servers and serving to get it to work. Logos has so far absorbed the cost of that for the existing limited apps. I think Logos is envisioning something far bigger that what the iOS/Android apps currently provide. More data transfer means more cost. Logos is saying, "IF you want that it will cost to get it, and it will cost every month you want to have access to it."

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 276
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 6:59 PM

MJ,

Part of my point is being able to have the option or buying or "renting" and not being forced to "rent" if one wants certain features.

How many of those textbooks do you want to keep? Do you only want a textbook for a semester? What if you decide the textbook is important and have to keep "renting."

If you are only going to be in  certain location for a short term period, renting a house instead of buying is probably the way to go.

I do not view Logos as a short term investment to use and get rid or even "flip." Logos is a long term investment.

Posts 276
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:02 PM

Bob,

See my response to MJ.

If you want something for the short term, renting is fine. Is that how I should be viewing my Logos investment? If the answer is "yes," that is troubling to say the least.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:02 PM

Lynden Williams:

Mark Barnes:
But, generally, you're right — and I would also much prefer that the new datasets were available to purchase.

Old Testament Propositonal Bible Outline 39.95

Greek Grammatical Constructions Dataset 14.95

Commandments of the Law 5.95

Visual Copy Templates 24.95

Author Slide Templates 24.95

Logos Stock Media vol. 24.95

Total cost if purchased seperately: $135.70

Monthly $8.95

No's 7 - 9 of Phil's post seem to be code only which will probably be released in an update of the engine. 

I stand corrected. The web price shows the cost (maybe eventual download) but the new content/features cannot be purchased independently of Logos Now.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:04 PM

Mark Johnson:
I do not view Logos as a short term investment to use and get rid or even "flip." Logos is a long term investment.

I suspect virtually all of Faithlife's current owners have a bias toward owning. That isn't surprising.

I hope that in one form or another Logos NOW will be, at least in part, rent-to-own, that part of the rental fee will apply toward an actual future purchase of the data sets or features.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:10 PM

Mark Johnson:

How many of those textbooks do you want to keep? Do you only want a textbook for a semester? What if you decide the textbook is important and have to keep "renting."

Some of the textbooks I wanted to keep and still use 30 years later. Some of them I did not want to keep and gave to students more junior than myself when the occasion arose.. ... But the point is that what you want to simply use for a while and what you want to keep are different groups ... as is illustrated well by the statistics on current textbooks. My almas mater is finding students what to rent electronic copies to have in class ... and either rent or own paper copies to study in the dorm room. The point is that Logos is giving us a rent/buy option ... not forcing either option on us. We still have to see how useful the rent option will be. We know how the buy option works.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 961
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:16 PM

I stand by my comments, look at google play for instance. You can pay for netflix style unlimited music but the songs you buy you own. iTunes also mixes rental and purchase. The website/webapp/app is the same whichever model of payment you choose. I've done bits of both. I'm not against Logos introducing rental. I'm disappointed that it includes improvements to their website and also that it excludes the option to purchase. I've invested huge amounts in Logos and always expected that one day rental would make it seem daft. I've never had a problem with that because I figure A) I'll still own it. B) It's the best proposition at the time. C) Needs must I have bible study to do now.

All that said, I like the idea of seperation between the software and the content. No need to agree with me but I understand the changes and I'm sorry but I don't really like them. IMHO the rental content could be/should be strong enough to carry its own weight without shackling the content and website together. Also I expect that one day they will be bundling something like my complete library into a rental package - great but at least do dynamic pricing/some kind of special offer for heavy investors so that I don't feel like I totally wasted my cash.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:17 PM

MJ. Smith:
Some of the textbooks I wanted to keep and still use...

Me too. I just wish they had been in Logos instead of the "dead tree" variety. Wink

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:22 PM

John Goodman:
All that said, I like the idea of seperation between the software and the content.

I agree with you, but a web app isn't software, and we weren't promised a web app when we purchased our base packages. I agree with you about the desire for it to be free, but I also understand that it will cost real money to develop and maintain... money that needs to come from somewhere. I think biblia.com is a good example of what we could expect to get for free... and how quickly it would be developed. I would love to see highlights, notes, guides, etc. on a web app... but I don't think that was going to happen without an inflow of cash. This <hopefully> provides that.

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John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:24 PM

I should add that I really do think rental is great and should go ahead. The more people who can afford to access these kind of tools and make good use of them the better. I just think there should remain some benefit to buying or having bought.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 961
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:32 PM

alabama24:
we weren't promised a web app when we purchased our base packages. I agree with you about the desire for it to be free, but I also understand that it will cost real money to develop and maintain...

Yes but Logos costs money to develop and maintain and if you divide my total spend so far by months then I'm paying considerably more than this rental fee for it to be developed. They fund it out of my book purchases. I doubt I'll kick the habit;) The same is actually true for iTunes etc. I really think they could seperate content from platform even if its a web platform. The server costs for a web platform are probably lower than for me to download 10s of gigabytes of data as a one off? The more platforms the more buyers/renters all the better surely?

I'm not looking for a free ride, I'm looking for an enjoyable one which feels fair. I don't and haven't ever subscribed to a website because it doesn't feel fair. I do buy from Logos because I immensely enjoy using it to study and pray and the pricing feels very fair.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 179
Matthew Langlois | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:34 PM

Joseph Turner:

Bob Pritchett:

Russ (and others),

We have no intention or plan of ending support for the downloadable version. There is a huge, 20+ year investment in the downloadable technology, and it will take years to fully match that functionality on the web. Even then, there will be high value and utility in fast, offline, tech.

There is no plan to end downloadable software. Cloud based access is a complement, not a replacement.

-- Bob

This is comforting!

Most comforting!

Posts 276
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:40 PM

MJ,

You know much more about all things Logos then I do and I think this is my last post about this.

You wrote "The point is that Logos is giving us a rent/buy option." If that is true, I have no problem with and more power to Logos. However, this is not what I understand from this thread. It appears that one must buy a base package (which is not a problem), but that means that it is not a try rent/buy option. Second, there has been no confirmation from Logos in this thread (that I have read) that everything that is available in Logos Now will be available to buy (either now or in the future).

Maybe I just do not understand it correctly or I am missing something.

Posts 602
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 7:53 PM

Mark:

Phil Gons:
The goal is for it to be platform agnostic.

Which means it would work on Linux?

Or, on Chrome OS on a chromebook?

Edit: Answered my own question by reading on further in the thread.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 8:06 PM

Rayner:
It would be very handy to have some kind of preview of the new (beta) app, or for somebody who has started paying for Logos Now to let us all know what features it contains.

Several people have mentioned this. We'll consider posting screenshots and maybe a demo video. We envisioned the free trial serving this purpose, though.

Right now it's basically Biblia.com with a new user interface that looks pretty similar to the desktop app with a few small tweaks. We've not added much new functionality to it yet. There's another thread about the web app that talks about our tentative plans for adding features.

Posts 499
SteveHD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 8:11 PM

I will look into this more.

Posts 27554
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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 8:13 PM

John Goodman:
Yes but Logos costs money to develop and maintain and if you divide my total spend so far by months then I'm paying considerably more than this rental fee for it to be developed. They fund it out of my book purchases.

You may spend way more than I do, but most people spend way more less than I do. I actually don't prefer the "pay for resources, software is free" model (although it currently benefits me)... but that is the model we were promised and are living under. 

A few more thoughts:

  • A large portion of your "book purchases" are going to the publishers and authors.
  • A large portion of the remaining funds goes towards the cost of converting the resource to the Logos format.
  • A large portion of Logos users make relatively small purchases. This is especially true with the advent of the mobile apps.
  • This is really more of a subscription... I tend to buck against "rentals," but I love Amazon Prime and Netflix!

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 8:14 PM

Sean:
My question as a systematic theologian is: does it have any features that will benefit me? As it is I don't use 90% of the search & Bible study features I've gotten from L4-6, and I don't particularly feel the need for more. What I do use are the many specific resources related to my field. Does Logos Now have anything to offer in that direction, or will it in the future?

Great question. As a PhD (ABD) in Theology with a love for systematic and historical theology, I'm passionate about seeing Logos become a better tool for theological study, not just for exegetical study. And I'm happy to report that we have some pretty cool things in the works for future releases that'll be right up your alley. In particular, there's a new guide section aimed at drawing out the riches of your systematics library.

In this release, the Concordance tool may prove useful for you. You can do some neat analysis of Calvin's Institutes, for example, to see what words he uses most in particular sections. A future version of Concordance will allow you to see everything Calvin cited, sorted by frequency. I see Concordance have broad use for exegetes, theologians, historians, and others.

If you have particular feature ideas, I'd love to hear them. Feel free to reach out to me at phil@faithlife.com.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 6 2015 8:19 PM

SHotchkiss:
I hope they don't get the same books I have paid for included for 8.99 a month but oh well.

Logos Now doesn't really provide access to resources. It isn't a base package rental. 

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