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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 6:02 PM

Floyd Johnson:
Actually, my thought, as I typed, was that I was echoing your comment.

Sounds good Fred, er, Floyd. Yes Big Smile

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 6:29 PM

Big Smile


Posts 3670
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 6:40 PM

Yes

Blessings,
Floyd

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Posts 100
N/A | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 6:35 AM

I note that resource sets that can be rented, such as commentaries (I have Cambridge Greek Testament on my mind) don't have dynamic pricing when choosing to rent despite that they have dynamic pricing if You buy the set to own it and own some volumes since before. I realize it would be difficult for the customer to see the exact advantage of buying more volumes to own if planning to rent the commentary set again some time as no full credit can be given, but anyway this illustrates the difference between owning and renting. Individual volumes from that particular series are sometimes on a sale for example in daily facebook or twitter deals - those sources always have 50% off as they are daily deals. page 11 in this thread:

Mark Smith:
I think you are on the right track, but so far Faithlife has not made any promises. I think it would strengthen the offering considerably for Faithlife to make a specific commitment to some sort of dynamic or discounted pricing on future upgrades. The more folks who ask for this the better in my opinion:
Bill Roth:
It seems that all Logos would have to do is promise free crossgrades after, say 24 months of Logos Now, and people would be clamoring to subscribe.  Or maybe offer the next crossgrade on dynamic pricing that honestly accounts for the preceding Logos Now subscription.

L2 Catholic new; Used: ODCC L5 Reformed Silver L6 Full Crossgrade; L6 Chinese Bronze new; L6 Ancient Literature Feature Expansion Collection (25 vols.) new, no dynamic pricing. Before packs had 100 books incl. AYBRL new

Posts 82
Ed Stone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 8:20 AM

Simon:

Mark Smith:

Bill Roth:
There is another point to be made on this subject.  Logos has consistently in the past operated under the model of something like "you'll never have to pay for the same thing twice."  If there is no free or highly discounted crossgrade for long duration Logos Now subscribers, then we will indeed be paying for the same thing twice.

Not to argue but we will be getting the use of features for our money. So far we don't know if we will ever own them, but I am certainly hopeful Faithlife will allow that at least by the time of the next major upgrade (Logos 7). So in a sense even if we have to pay for them again with Logos 7, we have used them for quite some time before that and have paid for that use. It isn't fully one way or the other. A bit of both, which is why I hope Faithlife will factor that into upgrade pricing in some way.

If Logos makes the promise that the paid subscription fee will fully or partly (50% or more) be usable as credit when upgrading to Logos 7, I will subscribe today without hesitating.

If Logos 7 will be released in 2 years, that would mean $192 in subscription fees. It's a shame paying that amount of money, and having to pay the full upgrade price to be able to keep on using them (owning them). Owning books/features/datasets means a big deal to me. But paying twice for the same feature just te be able to own it, feels wrong.

Maybe a Logos employee would be so kind to give us a bit of clarity on this issue.

This is what I am trying to get my head around. The way this sounds...I can subscribe and get the next version functionality today. So, for me, I own Logos 6 Gold today and if I want to start to use some of the Version 7 functionality today I would subscribe. If that is true, when version 7 comes out and I DON'T upgrade but keep paying for Logos Now, do i keep getting Version 7 functionality and so I do not necessarily need to upgrade? But if I do upgrade, I in essence pay to OWN the functionality I have been SUBSCRIBING to up to that point right?

I can't help to think that I am paying to help "beta" test future functionality so I agree with other posts that assurance of a significant discount towards the next base package upgrade would go along way towards me making use of the Logos Now subscription option otherwise I would probably just wait patiently for the next version and be happy with todays functionality.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 8:31 AM

Ed,

Good post. I too have been thinking about the 50% figure. The way I figure it I am currently getting about $4.50 value from Logos Now. The media is worth about $2.50 per month to me and the privilege of using the Logos 7 features early are worth about $2.00 per month to me. This leaves the other 50%. Will the special discounts we get average out to $4.50 per month? Will the added media be of such value that it is worth more to me then $2.50 per month? Will we get some type of discount that will be worth the unaccounted for $4.50?

I will give Logos NOW two months to clarify these questions (one free month + one month for $8.99). After that I will cancel if I don't see any more value than I presently do. As things stand it is just not worth $8.99 per month to me.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 8:33 AM

Ed Stone:
I can't help to think that I am paying to help "beta" test future functionality

Just reflecting on this point

In https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713875.aspx#713875 Phil says that the core at the moment is "Access to new dataset, media, and interactive content" - so not paying to help with beta testing any more than people on the stable channel of the desktop platform are expected to be doing so.

 

Posts 82
Ed Stone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 8:43 AM

Graham Criddle:

Ed Stone:
I can't help to think that I am paying to help "beta" test future functionality

Just reflecting on this point

In https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713875.aspx#713875 Phil says that the core at the moment is "Access to new dataset, media, and interactive content" - so not paying to help with beta testing any more than people on the stable channel of the desktop platform are expected to be doing so.

Thanks Graham. I admit this is not actually a beta scenario. However, having a group of people using the new functionality that is not available as a general release (except via Logos Now) will certainly give Logos another opportunity to fix the likely bugs that will occur prior to a general base package release. I am not opposed to that strategy but I do think an upgrade discount to faithful Logos Now subscribers would help with that perception. I like Keith's example above and his suggested scenario would encourage me to join the new program.

Posts 10456
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 9:23 AM

Well, I guess I better fess up now, rather than later, when my conscience may be an issue.

I'm hoping large numbers of folks sign up. I've been being negative, so the fan folks can rightly correct me.

- Get all those feaures 'right' so they'll be ready when I'm ready.  I'm still stretching my legs on L5 features.

- Bucks for Logos.  Fund completion of L4, L5, and L6 features still awaiting Logos priority.

- Another internet site for Logos.  I'd wondered, after the dating site collapsed

- Maybe Logos can figure out what the Faithlife social site is for. Features?

- And I'll be able to continue my poor humor habits


Posts 3081
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 7:08 AM

Denise:

Well, I guess I better fess up now, rather than later, when my conscience may be an issue.

I'm hoping large numbers of folks sign up. I've been being negative, so the fan folks can rightly correct me.

- Get all those feaures 'right' so they'll be ready when I'm ready.  I'm still stretching my legs on L5 features.

- Bucks for Logos.  Fund completion of L4, L5, and L6 features still awaiting Logos priority.

- Another internet site for Logos.  I'd wondered, after the dating site collapsed

- Maybe Logos can figure out what the Faithlife social site is for. Features?

- And I'll be able to continue my poor humor habits

The Faithlife site has been very much figured out and is quite useful. The problem is that people consider it a social site much like facebook  which is not the primary purpose.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 11:12 AM

Yep ... customers (aka users) have a bad habit deciding what things are for.  My guess is Logos will meld it into the new online Logos7, to include a mini-Online-Proclaim for smaller churches.


Posts 3081
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 11:31 AM

Denise:

Yep ... customers (aka users) have a bad habit deciding what things are for.  My guess is Logos will meld it into the new online Logos7, to include a mini-Online-Proclaim for smaller churches.

I'm not sure of any product where it makes sense that the customer decides what something made by a company is supposed to be used for.  The company tells you what it is for and you decide if you want to use it or not. If you use it for something other than intended use why complain that it doesn't work they way you want?  Doesn't make any sense.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 12:50 PM

Denise:

Yep ... customers (aka users) have a bad habit deciding what things are for.  My guess is Logos will meld it into the new online Logos7, to include a mini-Online-Proclaim for smaller churches.

I love it when you crack me up. Smaller churches include attendance in the following ranges, right?

  • zero
  • negative integers
  • imaginary integers

'cause current pricing is:

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 1:09 PM

David Taylor Jr:
The Faithlife site has been very much figured out and is quite useful. The problem is that people consider it a social site much like facebook  which is not the primary purpose.

I have no idea what the "faithlife" site is for... It is a bag of hurt any time I have been forced to use it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 1:13 PM

While I'm not a huge fan of the Faithlife site, I think it is interesting that Verbum manages to run Year of Faith Reading Groups, Lenten Bibles studies etc. on it without major problems.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10456
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 3:08 PM

Idea

Gee, after I heard about the Logos strategic plans ('we just don't know'), and their eco-system (reminding me of the highly regarded Ecophonics), $8.99 a month for a pastor's Bible software upkeep plus a mini-Proclaim sounded really Logostrategic.  


Posts 9
Roger Kadeg | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 3:19 PM

Your points are right on!  This is nothing short of the Adobe model, and what they did with Photoshop CS6 - no longer available as a separate package.  One is now on the hook to either 1.) pay for the "privilege" of beta testing for Faithlife, 2.) "rent"- not own - the program - and lose all newest features if one stops paying rent, or 3.) pay for the software over and over - not just twice. 

To quote one well-know former Logos employee who still makes his living supporting Logos - "Personally, I think it stinks that Logos is now charging more money for more features after just upgrading. But, hey what can you do? And if you read the fine print, once you stop the subscription, you lose the new features"  He goes on to note that no one knows what the implications are for Logos 7, either."  Clearly he is very dissatisfied with this event.

The individuals who believe that this is great or they are getting a good deal need to consider these points, ignore the Faithlife spin, and to quote one famous icon, "stop drinking the Kool-Aid".  At $8.99/month, less free month, its almost $100/year - certainly not trivial for me - and after a two year cycle, do I get any credit against 7, does 7 contain these features, etc. - and one keeps on paying as they move towards version 8 - if they don't follow the Adobe model.  It's simply another scheme to finance their development costs (and obviously increasing overhead subsequent to the sale/acquisition) and create a permanent, known base income stream.  This does not even factor in the complications created by greatly increasing the complexity of user configurations in release that Logos must/should support.  I don't believe with the information now in hand that this offering is good for the consumer, and I am not certain that in the long view it is good for Logos/Faithlife, either.

Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 4:19 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Ultimately our goal is to reduce the cost of Bible study tools. You don't have to believe us -- you're welcome to sit out Logos Now and future products, and we'll continue to serve you as we have for many years -- but I hope you'll keep an open mind and watch what follows. You'll see the Logos Now isn't about extracting more from you, it's about giving you an even better deal -- so that ultimately we can make more by serving a larger percentage of the church. Our ambition is to make Collectors-level Bible study tools and library available to everyone for just a few dollars a month. It will take a while (years?) to get there, but that's our heart and passion.

I appreciate your insight into this goal of Faithlife/Logos, and I appreciate what you guys are trying to do. I think that a subscription-based model is great for those who can't afford to purchase the resources outright. However, where I begin to have a great concern is when customers are forced to either pay for a subscription or miss out. To me, it's very concerning when I see a company heading that route.

When Microsoft, for example, chose to go the subscription route with Office 365, it pretty much solidified that I will never be giving them my business again for an Office type suite, and I went elsewhere to find other companies that provided either free or non-subscription based alternatives. If Logos continues to pursue a subscription-only approach, I will most likely look to give my future business elsewhere, which would make me very sad Sad because I love Logos! Smile

For example, I've been anxiously waiting for the OT Propositional outline dataset. And now, is the only way for me to get it to subscribe to a monthly fee? Or is there a plan for it to become available for purchase for those who would rather not pay for Logos Now? Again, I think that a subscription approach could fit the needs of many well who cannot afford to purchase a large base package, etc. but please, please allow us to have the best of both worlds and give us the option to purchase the same features and resources outright if we don't prefer the subscription model. Please don't try to force everyone to go down a path that only meets the needs of some.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 10 2015 11:36 PM

Roger Kadeg:
This is nothing short of the Adobe model, and what they did with Photoshop CS6 - no longer available as a separate package.

Bob Pritchett, Faithlife CEO, started thread => Why subscription that includes:

Bob Pritchett:

Let me start by saying, I know some of you hate subscription models, and that's okay. We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future.

If you don't like subscriptions, it's fine if you just don't subscribe. We'll just keep offering you things you can buy.

. . .

So we're trying to find a better middle ground; our goal is to use subscription products to ensure that people who are heavy users forever are also revenue generators forever. By stretching the revenue out over time -- and having it continue as long as the use does -- we ensure that revenue and expenses are more in sync. (As opposed to getting it all up front and hoping it lasts till the next big thing you can sell ships.)

And when this model works, a wonderful side-effect appears: the cost-of-entry to the platform goes down. Starting with the product doesn't have a large up front cost; it's just a few dollars a month. That invites more participation, more trials, and (hopefully) more users. Which lets us spread our costs over more customers, and ultimately offer more value for less overall cost. That's how you can watch a movie every night of the month (on Netflix, for $8.99) for less than the price of buying a single movie on DVD.

. . .

Again, we're not trying to take anything away. We actually love getting large hits of revenue around upgrade cycles, and there is a whole set of other problems with slow revenue over time. That's why we're not making a wholesale switch to subscription -- it would completely disrupt our business. Don't worry. We're just preparing to support both models so that we can offer you more for less and address the needs of people who like both models.

Thankful for Faithlife product plans that are different than Adobe.  An open source alternative to photoshop is GIMP => http://www.gimp.org/

Later in the thread, Bob replied => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103335/714917.aspx#714917

Bob Pritchett:

John Fugh, Jr.:
What happens for the subscriber when the next major release occurs?

We don't even know yet, but in general we try very hard to avoid making you pay twice for the same thing. Of course prices change constantly (as we generally reduce the price of content over time), so it's hard to promise one-to-one credits (otherwise dynamic pricing might require cash refunds -- not a sustainable business model!) but we don't know yet. We don't even know yet all the things that will be in Logos Now before Logos 7 ships.

Concur pro-rating Logos Now subscription payments toward future major release upgrade(s) would be greatly appreciated for "ownable" items in a major upgrade.  Caveat: Logos Now includes more than "ownable" content and features that can be used offline.

Roger Kadeg:
pay for the "privilege" of beta testing for Faithlife

Thankful for Phil Gons reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713875.aspx#713875 that included:

Phil Gons:

Frank Sauer:
So is Logos Now just a subscription based beta testing program? It seems that it's an avenue to have early access to new features.

No. Early access to new features is just part of the value of a Now subscription. Access to new dataset, media, and interactive content is the core of the subscription for now.

Logos 6.2 Beta releases had improvements and bug fixes for every Logos 6 and Verbum 6 user => https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.2 plus new Logos Now features.

Thankful for Faithlife development change so Beta 1 release can have new features that is followed by several Beta releases focused on improvement plus bug fixes with goal of new stable release every 6 weeks.

Thankful for many new features in Logos 6 => What's New in Logos 6 (still have a lot to learn)

Roger Kadeg:
At $8.99/month, less free month, its almost $100/year

Thankful for Phil Gon's reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713750.aspx#713750 that includes:

Phil Gons:

We'd like to offer annual billing eventually, which would be $89.99. This would essentially get you two free months per year and be a way to lock in the lower rate for at least 12 months.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 570
Schumitinu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 12:16 AM

Phil Gons:

It's likely that some of what's included in Logos Now will eventually be a part of some future base packages. How much, we're not sure yet. What we are pretty sure of is that some of what's included will not be, especially things that are dynamic and always-growing.

Can someone give examples of things that are "dynamic and always-growing"?

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