My take on Logos Now

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Posts 80
EX | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2015 7:41 AM

MJ. Smith:

FOB:
Doesn't High Definition NT and OT include propositional outline? Please correct me if I am wrong. It feels like I am paying twice...

No, they are both routed in discourse analysis. And some of the additional information provided by the Propositional Outline is coded in the icons within the High Definition Text.

Thanks! That is helpful to know. Is that propositional outline in ESV part of Logos Now? Are you a subscriber?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2015 8:25 AM

FOB:
Is that propositional outline in ESV part of Logos Now?

Propositional Outlines in the New Testament was introduced in Logos 6 (core crossgrade or Silver Base Package or higher) as per https://community.logos.com/forums/t/92621.aspx 

Propositional Outlines in the Old Testament are available in Logos Now - not available in all OT books yet but more are continually added

Posts 80
EX | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2015 11:38 AM

Graham Criddle:

FOB:
Is that propositional outline in ESV part of Logos Now?

Propositional Outlines in the New Testament was introduced in Logos 6 (core crossgrade or Silver Base Package or higher) as per https://community.logos.com/forums/t/92621.aspx 

Propositional Outlines in the Old Testament are available in Logos Now - not available in all OT books yet but more are continually added

Okay. Thank you for the clarification!

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2015 11:45 PM

Bill Moore:

I realize that this is a six-month-old thread, but I've been busily trying to understand what Logos Now is about and have read a lot of past threads today about it. I didn't pay much attention to previous email announcements and dismissed it because I confused it with Logos Cloud.

However, I am wondering if anyone who had doubts about Logos Now has changed his or her mind. My initial reaction is summed up by several who have said that they didn't use a good bit that is available in their Logos 6 base package. I love technology, probably too much, so I need to be convinced to pay additionally for an annual subscription.

Bill, I'll give you a quick insiders perspective. Logos Now had a nice spike of early adoption, by, you guessed it, the early adopters. :) Since then, it's been steady growth, with smaller spikes happening every six weeks with the release of a new software version and new value added to Now. Some people considered the early releases to have enough value to warrant the $8.99/mo. (or $7.50/mo. if paid annually). But as time passes, more and more people are becoming convinced and jumping on board. We've been quite encouraged by the response. Many who were strongly resistant to any kind of subscription are now using and enjoying Logos Now. October's free book promotion for the annual subscription has been hugely successful. It was just what many people needed to jump on board. 6.7 ships on Monday, which will even further increase the value. Over time we hope it becomes such a compelling value that everyone subscribes.

Posts 169
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 3:42 PM

I'm really somewhat surprised at all these answers, and who they've come from.  I've always felt like the dinosaur around here, just wanting the software to search my lexicons as well as they did in the past (which it doesn't). 

I strongly suspect that with the creation of Logos Now, the days of being able to buy and install Logos on one's own machine are numbered.  The confirmation of Phil Gons that it is selling well just solidifies my expectation that it could be coming fairly soon.  Unfortunately, that is the direction that many software companies are going, and Logos has always prided themselves at being on the front edge, not the back, of technology trends...

Large companies in other fields have al0ready forced this direction.  For instance, Adobe doesn't make their industry standard software Photoshop anymore.  They sell subscriptions, just like Logos has begun to.  In fact, I believe it began the same way, with Adobe saying they were just providing another option for consumers.  Then, when they had a fairly stable number of people using it, they announced the end of their Photoshop software being sold to consumers.

These software companies like it because it gives them a steady stream of income.  They market it as offering greater value, as you are always up to date with the latest tools and procedures.  However, if you don't want to work online, if you don't want all those latest tools and procedures, or you can't really afford monthly subscriptions, you're kind of stuck.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 4:59 PM

Josh:
Yes, I am aware. I guess you can say I live by the old idiom: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :)

Yes there are some advantages to this but life is progressing, computers and the Internet is getting faster; people are finding new ways to make what was previously readily available to seminary students and graduates to the hoi polloi.  

This in turn will usher in further reforms as people dig deeper, question previous dogma and a new force for transformation will grow.  

I'm excited for the future.  Yes, what you have now satisfies you, but you don't what is just around the corner.  

The ability to collaborate with other users, is still relatively untapped.  The Notes area is still relatively rudimentary.  A journal for keeping personal thoughts and reflections would be useful for those who want to "live" in Logos.  A better interface (drag and drop?) for creating your own Personal Books would be exciting.  A greater range of Catholic and Judaic materials would enrich user experiences out of sight.  

I'm not an expert but image how much more there could be from those who are more knowledgeable?  

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 5:05 PM

Al Het:
However, if you don't want to work online, if you don't want all those latest tools and procedures, or you can't really afford monthly subscriptions, you're kind of stuck

The advent of a sufficiently quick and reliable Internet has allowed products change to services.  It's also made us very dependent on being on the Internet so governments are beginning to consider the Internet as an essential infrastructure service like other utilities.  

Looks like people will have to fall back on virtualisation technologies to allow them to run legacy software on older environments in order to gain offline access.  

Having said that, I've just shifted over to Office 365 and now it's available on up to 5 PCs and 5 Tablets.  That works out to be very economical for a busy family of six and our eldest is aged 11.  Office 365 also allows you to download the app so you always have offline access.  Just haven't figured out OneDrive yet.  

Hopefully other's will take Microsoft's lead and make their products as accessible and affordable.

Posts 36
Erich-Ayumi | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 5:17 PM

Can't wait for 6.7!!! Logos Now is just getting better and better. I use the app.logos.com quite a bit and that is also getting better and better too. I am glad i paid the full one year amount before the CAD dropped. 

Posts 169
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 5:23 PM

MJ. Smith:
Why do Logos users want to simply do Bible study as they always have rather than taking advantage of tools that allow them to answer questions that without technology they could only ask ... not answer?

I can answer this question from my perspective, as a pastor.

Each and every week, I need to prepare between one and three teachings from the Bible, and a sermon.  During each and every week, I also need to do and additional 30 or more hours of church related work.  Some of that time is what I would consider direct "ministry," some of it is spent doing the regular "stuff" that needs to get done for a church to operate.  I could clearly spend more hours doing a variety of other things related to study and ministry, but this seems to be the right balance, giving me an appropriate amount of time with my family each week as well.  All that to say, it would be great to have more time for sermon and Bible Study prep, but that rarely happens.

Now to your question about "answering questions."  With the limited time I have to prepare Bible Study and sermons, I want the Biblical text to answer the questions surrounding how God wants us to live, in intimate relationship with Him.  I want to accurately, and clearly glean the truth of each passage we are studying, and what its practical daily application is to our lives with God through Jesus Christ.  In my week-in, week-out study, I'm not nearly as interested in the high-minded theoretical and philosophical questions, or in drawing on expansive cross volume studies as I am the solid truth that each passage teaches us for living.  In my regular prep time, I'm not particularly interested in answering different questions.  I'm interested in making sure I'm doing solid, appropriate study, and using my time wisely.

This is where good Bible software is so helpful to the Pastor.  I can exegete the text in a fraction of the time I used to need.  Greek and Hebrew tools that I always had but took a long time to use, looking up a dozen or more words in several lexicons, are now available at just few clicks (but used to be available in single click or two, with Libronix).  Commentaries are faster to access as well, though this is not as huge a time saver as the language ones are.

Logos began as precisely this type of tool, specifically for pastors and others who were doing the work of Sermon and Bible Study prep.  It has clearly (and intentionally, I believe) morphed into something far more than that, and today might be more intentionally aimed at the scholar who wants to research, than the pastor who wants to prepare messages each week.  I think what you are hearing in many of these comments is, this gradual shift of focus to more in-depth, conceptual study across vast resources has made Logos feel less agile when it comes to straight-forward, week-in, week-out study of Bible for the purpose of regular teaching.

From my perspective, anyway.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 5:23 PM

Al Het:

I strongly suspect that with the creation of Logos Now, the days of being able to buy and install Logos on one's own machine are numbered.  The confirmation of Phil Gons that it is selling well just solidifies my expectation that it could be coming fairly soon.  Unfortunately, that is the direction that many software companies are going, and Logos has always prided themselves at being on the front edge, not the back, of technology trends...

Large companies in other fields have al0ready forced this direction.  For instance, Adobe doesn't make their industry standard software Photoshop anymore.  They sell subscriptions, just like Logos has begun to.  In fact, I believe it began the same way, with Adobe saying they were just providing another option for consumers.  Then, when they had a fairly stable number of people using it, they announced the end of their Photoshop software being sold to consumers.

I don't know about adobe, and really can't say anything at all even close to good about them. However, I can say that Logos has, and will continue to have a desktop version. Bob has even said this at one point.

Look at it from the perspective of a car owner. I can't speak for you, but I have spent enough money in logos that in two years I will have spent far far more than the value of my car, and possibly more than the value of my home (not the land mind you, just the home). So I think in some ways a car is a fair comparrison.

Some people (Like Denise!) love the classics. They prefer the 1969 camaro. It looked great, had stellar performance for its year, and has retained quite a bit of value despite its age and the sheer number of 1st gen camaros available. For people that want a classic that they are familiar with Logos allows us that option. People are still using L3. I have a bunch of (and recently ordered a few more) L2 cd's. Other people are still driving and happy with their 2015 camaro when the 2016 comes out. But because the 2016 is available they drop their 2015 like a hot potato and rush down and buy the 2016 in whatever color they can get their hands on.

Logos - as far as I can tell, and based upon what Bob has said - intends to continue putting a new version out there every so often that people can buy. This way the 1969 camaro owner can look down their nose at the new editions and cling to their older but still amazing classic. This way the 2015 owner can still jump on the bandwagon when the 2016 comes out.

Enter Logos Now. With Logos now, the 2015 owner (but not the 69' owner) can drive by the dealership once every few weeks and have any of the new 2016 parts bolted on as they are ready (or if you're really adventurous, as they are ready for beta testing). This way when the new engine comes out, or a new way of increasing the power or eficiency comes out for the next model year, you can have it bolted on today and for just a few dollars.

Its a value add program for a value add software. no one is forcing you to buy it, no one is going to lose their classic 69 (unless of course industry forces cause cars to start running on water or something and gas can no longer be found), and you can keep your 2015, and if you want you can bolt on 2016 parts to improve the car a bit at a time.

There are no plans to force anyone onto a subscription only plan.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 169
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 5:47 PM

abondservant:
no one is forcing you to buy it, no one is going to lose their classic 69 (unless of course industry forces cause cars to start running on water or something and gas can no longer be found), and you can keep your 2015, and if you want you can bolt on 2016 parts to improve the car a bit at a time.

Yes, but that's the precise problem with software, isn't it?  Operating systems change.  As long as your old computer works, you can keep your old "car."  However, if/when you are forced to buy new computers, with new operating systems, practically speaking you are forced into newer "cars."  Hence, Logos (and other companies) quit supporting their old software.  Keep using it if you want, but don't expect support for it.  And the general plan is for you to upgrade.  From the developer end of things, this is pretty much how it has to be.

abondservant:
There are no plans to force anyone onto a subscription only plan.

That may well be true with Logos.  If so, they will be significantly different than a whole host of other companies, including Microsoft.  Oh, and many of those companies started out their cloud services by saying that no one would be forced onto them.  And, not all of them are/were lying.  Things change, and technology changes.

abondservant:
However, I can say that Logos has, and will continue to have a desktop version. Bob has even said this at one point.

I don't know what precisely that Bob has said, or if he's committed to never, ever quit providing a software version that can be run offline, but that would be a bit surprising if he did.  Logos is used by people (including me, occasionally) in places that there is no reliable internet connection, so I hope you're right.  However, the vast majority of users have continual, fairly stable access.  It is the direction things seem to be heading.

Have a great weekend.

Posts 924
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 7:43 PM

Al Het:

MJ. Smith:
Why do Logos users want to simply do Bible study as they always have rather than taking advantage of tools that allow them to answer questions that without technology they could only ask ... not answer?

I can answer this question from my perspective, as a pastor.

Each and every week, I need to prepare between one and three teachings from the Bible, and a sermon.  During each and every week, I also need to do and additional 30 or more hours of church related work.  Some of that time is what I would consider direct "ministry," some of it is spent doing the regular "stuff" that needs to get done for a church to operate.  I could clearly spend more hours doing a variety of other things related to study and ministry, but this seems to be the right balance, giving me an appropriate amount of time with my family each week as well.  All that to say, it would be great to have more time for sermon and Bible Study prep, but that rarely happens.

Now to your question about "answering questions."  With the limited time I have to prepare Bible Study and sermons, I want the Biblical text to answer the questions surrounding how God wants us to live, in intimate relationship with Him.  I want to accurately, and clearly glean the truth of each passage we are studying, and what its practical daily application is to our lives with God through Jesus Christ.  In my week-in, week-out study, I'm not nearly as interested in the high-minded theoretical and philosophical questions, or in drawing on expansive cross volume studies as I am the solid truth that each passage teaches us for living.  In my regular prep time, I'm not particularly interested in answering different questions.  I'm interested in making sure I'm doing solid, appropriate study, and using my time wisely.

This is where good Bible software is so helpful to the Pastor.  I can exegete the text in a fraction of the time I used to need.  Greek and Hebrew tools that I always had but took a long time to use, looking up a dozen or more words in several lexicons, are now available at just few clicks (but used to be available in single click or two, with Libronix).  Commentaries are faster to access as well, though this is not as huge a time saver as the language ones are.

Logos began as precisely this type of tool, specifically for pastors and others who were doing the work of Sermon and Bible Study prep.  It has clearly (and intentionally, I believe) morphed into something far more than that, and today might be more intentionally aimed at the scholar who wants to research, than the pastor who wants to prepare messages each week.  I think what you are hearing in many of these comments is, this gradual shift of focus to more in-depth, conceptual study across vast resources has made Logos feel less agile when it comes to straight-forward, week-in, week-out study of Bible for the purpose of regular teaching.

From my perspective, anyway.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

I understand and identify with Al's point. As for the Office 365 comparison, I am just wary of subscription-based products. I still purchase MS Office. I sincerely hope that Logos doesn't go to a subscription-only model, as others may have done. I don't want to be that dependent upon the internet. It seems that I read somewhere that Bob has used the term "foreseeable future," and I understand that no one can see that.

I may or may not add Logos Now, and am happy to see it as an add-on to the desktop product. I hope this is how it remains, with new desktop upgrades coming out every two or three years.

And I am certainly willing to be convinced to subscribe to Logos Now. One thing I do believe is that Logos will do right by their customers. It is right that they do so, and it is mutually beneficial.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 2821
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 7:59 PM

It seems to me that these tools are intended to do some of the important process of inductive Bible study for you, especially in the "observation" stage.  The problem is that Bible Study ceases to be "inductive" if someone (or a computer program) does it for you.  There is always some judgment, opinion, and theology that is part of such observations.  Of course, it is expert opinion, and much of it simple grammar.  But I think it far better to be trained to do this yourself.

FOB:

MJ. Smith:

FOB:
Doesn't High Definition NT and OT include propositional outline? Please correct me if I am wrong. It feels like I am paying twice...

No, they are both routed in discourse analysis. And some of the additional information provided by the Propositional Outline is coded in the icons within the High Definition Text.

Thanks! That is helpful to know. Is that propositional outline in ESV part of Logos Now? Are you a subscriber?

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2775
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 8:58 PM

Michael Childs:
The problem is that Bible Study ceases to be "inductive" if someone (or a computer program) does it for you.

 A hearty 'amen' to that!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 320
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 9:31 PM

Bill Moore:

I may or may not add Logos Now, and am happy to see it as an add-on to the desktop product. I hope this is how it remains, with new desktop upgrades coming out every two or three years.

Bill, you're where I was at a couple months ago, and though I don't use all of what Now gives me, there is enough that if I dropped it, I feel like I would definitely miss it. Bought into the new Annual Now, and felt like that was the best value for myself.

Blessings

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2015 11:46 PM

Al Het:
Each and every week, I need to prepare between one and three teachings from the Bible, and a sermon.  During each and every week, I also need to do and additional 30 or more hours of church related work. 

In a number of traditions, the pastor of small churches must prepare a sermon (or reflection) for each day plus preparation for any classes they may be teaching. Because these are the traditions I am most familiar with, I see the work load as an even stronger reason to work smarter The image I am most familiar with for preaching is the feeding of the assembly from the Table of the Word ... a concept sometimes a bit broader than "practical daily application" so I am more inclined to spend time seeing where others have found "nutritional value" and compare that to the "dietary needs" of the congregation. From my perspective - primarily from the perspective of building lectionary-based Bible study curriculum but with considerably more preaching than most would expect from a female lay Catholic - it is the original language based level that Logos has streamlined the most - giving more time for the placing of what you refer to as application into a holistic view of Christian life.

Your comments were very helpful to me for understanding what you summed up very well:

Al Het:
I think what you are hearing in many of these comments is, this gradual shift of focus to more in-depth, conceptual study across vast resources has made Logos feel less agile when it comes to straight-forward, week-in, week-out study of Bible for the purpose of regular teaching.

See https://www.stathanasius.org/resources/bible-study-downloads/2014 as an example of a long example of an Orthodox take of scripture interpretation for the congregational level - certainly more extensive than most examples but a solid example of another approach to sermon preparation which Logos is also trying to support.

P.S. A number of well known Protestant converts to Catholicism have been creating Bible study materials that look much more similar to the Protestant model. But there are still more questions of the "compare the following verses" than in most Protestant studies.

I mention the Orthodox and Catholic takes so that those you described above can understand the needs of another group Logos markets to.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 277
Ergatees | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2015 8:16 AM

My sentiments exactly. I read through the posts and can say: yep, yep, yep. Like my dog...almost.

I am not an oil well for money. My pockets are very shallow but I still teach the bible so enjoy the tools I have and I don't feel I need to have every book on my shelves nor in Logos. I enjoy the tools and to see if my opinions are good, not isolated, fundamentalistic in the sense that my interpretation is the only one possible.

Ergatees

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