Logos Now-Pay for the "privilege" of buggy software?

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Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Apr 11 2015 3:19 AM

I just saw Logos Now advertised but the blog was pretty vague on how this "enhancement" added any value to the purchaser. It seems that you have the "privilege" of bing a beta-tester and getting beta software. I did that when Logos for Mac first came out. I can assure you it was an exercise in frustration, constant downloads, very buggy software with undocumented features. Why anyone would pay for such a dubious privilege is beyond me. It left me with a sour taste in my mouth for Logos for years.

It sounds like the idea of getting people to pay a monthly fee is attractive to Logos and they are searching for a way to make people want to subscribe. I hope this isn't the way Logos will be "purchased" in the future.

Someone help me see why anyone, anywhere should want Logos Now?

Posts 412
StephenMcC | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 4:00 AM

I take it you have read through the posts on this issue and they haven't provided the answers you are seeking?

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103245.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103500.aspx

and especially https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103335.aspx

I have found these to answer your questions.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 1:56 PM

I assume you've noted the new disciplined 6 week release cycle and the number of complaints of bugs in the new features of Logos Now? Whether as a side-effect or as a deliberate choice, Logos Now does several of the steps necessary to reduce the number of new bugs added with each new feature.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 2:49 PM

MJ,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I trust your insights and thus have become more optimistic regarding QC/QA in the development of Faithlife software.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 6:37 AM

StephenMcC:
I take it you have read through the posts on this issue and they haven't provided the answers you are seeking?

Actually, no. Thank you for the info. Every company is trying to find a way to get people to pay a monthly or yearly fee. I have given thousands of dollars to Logos, so I feel very vulnerable, because I do not want to lose my investment. I do not want to be a beta-tester for Logos. Neither to do I want a required monthly fee.

Phil

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 6:44 AM

Thinking:
I do not want to be a beta-tester for Logos

And as has been pointed out elsewhere this is not about beta-testing, this is about providing more functionality more quickly.

Thinking:
Neither to do I want a required monthly fee

There is no requirement on anyone to pay a monthly fee. Faithlife is offering this as an additional capability for those who want to subscribe.

In what way do you see this as "required"?

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 6:45 AM

Thinking:

StephenMcC:
I take it you have read through the posts on this issue and they haven't provided the answers you are seeking?

Actually, no.

Outrageous interruptus.

Graham Criddle:

In what way do you see this as "required"?

The knee-jerking aspect of these "thoughtful" responses is a bit unnerving, isn't it?

Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 8:48 AM

Graham Criddle:
There is no requirement on anyone to pay a monthly fee.

I know there is no requirement now, I was wondering out loud if this is going to be the direction that Logos would be going for the future. I remain a bit foggy about it. I am really trying to understand the Logos Now concept.

Is Logos Now really "Logos Early", and Logos desktop is "Logos Mature"? Is Logos Now really "Logos Up-to-Date" with Logos 7 received at no additional cost? If it is datasets that require new resources as the datasets become available, what is that charge? Will this simply be datasets without resources? And each month as a dataset comes out a resource is available with the dataset, etc. What I want to know is the real cost so I can know how to determine its value for me personally.

Right now, I purchase each yearly upgrade and buy resources with it. My purchases don't disappear if I cannot afford additional purchases. How does Logos Now change that pattern? Does it simply add an additional charge, but no permanent purchases. Why would I pay ~100/yr and own nothing in return? After 5 years would that $500 simply vanish if I am retired and unable to pay the monthly fee? What do I keep for the monthly payment? It sounds like nothing.

Posts 797
Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 9:18 AM

Thinking:

I know there is no requirement now, I was wondering out loud....

I am also trying to piece stuff together. And as Thinking intimated, my concern is not the present, but the future. Phrases like "foreseeable future" while accurate and honest -- don't help us resolve long term planning issues.

We have a running joke at work involving meeting deadlines. Our standard joking response to inquiries about when something will be completed is "in a moment." Of course, since "moment" is not quantitative, it gives us unlimited flexibility about when to finish. Similarly, I infer from the expression "foreseeable future" that there are no plans in place now. However, we all know that the marketplace induces changes in policies and business directions which makes long term planning for anything we customers do impossible.

FL has every right to do what they're doing. And diligent customers (especially those of us for whom our Logos dollars come from discretionary funds or those of us nearing retirement) have every right to try to piece our long term future of Logos by wondering out loud.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 9:22 AM

Thinking:
Is Logos Now really "Logos Early", and Logos desktop is "Logos Mature"?

In some ways yes - in that Logos Now provides access to features which, previously, would not have been available until a major upgrade to the software.

But - even without the Logos Now subscription - the desktop product is going to continue to be updated with changes and enhancements. Logos 6.2, for example, added new sections to Factbook, enhanced the Home Page, extended support for the Aramaic language, added the 1:1 ratio for Visual Copy and a range of other things as well as bug fixes. Details at https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.2 

Thinking:
Is Logos Now really "Logos Up-to-Date" with Logos 7 received at no additional cost?

We don't yet know what discounts / if any will apply to purchases of Logos 7 to those who have subscribed to Logos Now.

Faithlife have indicated that there are some capabilities in Logos Now which will not be rolled into base package upgrades.

Thinking:
What I want to know is the real cost so I can know how to determine its value for me personally.

Understood - but we don't know details yet as to what might be in any base package upgrade let alone its costing.

Thinking:
Right now, I purchase each yearly upgrade and buy resources with it. My purchases don't disappear if I cannot afford additional purchases

Correct (major upgrades are less frequent that yearly but the principle is valid)

Thinking:
How does Logos Now change that pattern? Does it simply add an additional charge, but no permanent purchases

Yes - but there will be some (as yet undefined) benefits as well

Thinking:
Why would I pay ~100/yr and own nothing in return?

Presumably because you thought that the services and features this provided was worth it to you.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 9:57 AM

Thinking, your last post does a much better job of owning up to your moniker.

Thinking:

Graham Criddle:
There is no requirement on anyone to pay a monthly fee.

I know there is no requirement now, I was wondering out loud if this is going to be the direction that Logos would be going for the future. I remain a bit foggy about it. I am really trying to understand the Logos Now concept.

Is Logos Now really "Logos Early", and Logos desktop is "Logos Mature"? Is Logos Now really "Logos Up-to-Date" 

I think you are starting to get the "Now" part of Logos Now. It isn't just a random name...it actually means something.

Not sure about all of your other ruminations, since I've felt little reason to examine the program's nuances and intricacies. I am not interested in this for a couple of reasons. Most of all, I'm using Vista and so I can't even run L6 even though I own an L6 base package (CE). There are other reasons, too. One thing is certain, though--I don't feel threatened or scared or offended or perplexed or angry or outraged by Logos Now, even though I can't get anything out of it. It is absurd and stupid to become apoplectic over every new thing Bob comes up with, especially when no one is foisting anything on customers against their will. 

The two most short-sighted aspects of the outrage customers have expressed over Logos Now has to do with, first of all, their mind-numbed caterwauling about "losing utility" of what they own (this is impossible) and how they are going "to have to do" this or that as a response to the program's introduction (which is pure nonsense...LN has no effect on them with regard to what they have already spent on Logos products, and it necessitates no action on their part whatsoever).

The most near-sighted (practically to the point of blindness) aspect of all the invective and rage against LN, and Logos innovation in general, is the way customers out of one side of their mouths wring their proverbial hands over the possibility that their costly investment in Logos as a platform could one day vanish in a puff of digital smoke should Logos go bankrupt, while out of the other side of their mouths they pound to smithereens every attempt Bob makes at generating revenue to keep the company healthy, afloat, and moving forward in a rapidly changing business environment.

A Christian Dating site that would address a growing market with thoughtfulness and principle where such things are hard to come by...and probably generate a tremendous amount of operating capital in the process? "HELL NO!!! NO MONEY GRUBBING MANNA CHASING ON MY WATCH!! And while your at it, I want all those extraordinarily expensive updates to keep coming without a hiccup, and I don't want to be bothered with any ads that induce me to provide the company with the financial resources that pay for these things!"

It really starts to make you wonder if all these deeply committed Christians really believe in God or in magic, because magic is the only thing that can account for their irrational cognitive dissonance where Logos's responsibilities and capabilities are concerned. Don't you dare go bankrupt! Don't you dare generate revenue! Don't you dare do anything that I don't approve of! Don't you dare invite me to spend money! Don't you dare innovate! Don't you dare become obsolete! Of course, this is typical Christian behavior, and cognitive dissonance is its modus operandi, its raison d'etre, and its middle name. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 11:07 AM

David Paul:
It really starts to make you wonder if all these deeply committed Christians really believe in God or in magic, because magic is the only thing that can account for their irrational cognitive dissonance where Logos's responsibilities and capabilities are concerned. Don't you dare go bankrupt! Don't you dare generate revenue! Don't you dare do anything that I don't approve of! Don't you dare invite me to spend money! Don't you dare innovate! Don't you dare become obsolete! Of course, this is typical Christian behavior, and cognitive dissonance is its modus operandi, its raisond'etre, and its middle name. 

One flaw in your accusation against Christians: You imply that all objections are raised by all people. In reality some object to a dating site but not Logos Now. Some object to Logos Now but like the dating site idea. Some demand frequent updates but others hate them. Your generalization of all users is unfair.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 11:50 AM

Graham Criddle:
We don't yet know what discounts / if any will apply to purchases of Logos 7

Graham Criddle:
there will be some (as yet undefined) benefits as well

Graham Criddle:
we don't know details yet as to what might be in any base package upgrade let alone its costing

Thank you for the info. I guess the reason I couldn't find the answers to my questions is that the answers are not yet available. Some pretty basic info is still unknown. This is why I wondered outloud why anyone with the present information would subscribe. I still wonder. But, of course, there are many people without my budget restraints.

Graham Criddle:
Faithlife have indicated that there are some capabilities in Logos Now which will not be rolled into base package upgrades.

That is the problem. If the dataset isn't very important, who would subscribe? If it is important, the desktop version is in effect somewhat crippled, thus making it a "requirement" to continue subscribing forever.

Graham Criddle:
the services and features this provided was worth it

Of course. This is why I have been trying to find out what services and features are being provided. Unknown discounts, (as yet undefined) benefits, unknown details on base package upgrades, don't quite reach my threshold for subscribing. What one poster attacks as unjustified and unthinking criticism just seems like financial prudence to me.

For me, a monthly fee that would automatically include future upgrades and necessary resources with a discount if paid for a year (or more), would be be of interest. That way, when I am no longer able to upgrade, I still keep what I have. That would be "services and features" that were worth it to me. But if it is buggy, beta type software, "potentially" useful datasets without resources to make them presently useful, without any idea of the real cost for resources to make the datasets useful, I will happily stick with the desktop version.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 12:09 PM

Super.Tramp:

Your generalization of all users is unfair.

Perhaps, unless the generalization is intended to entail a broader and more universal perspective than issues pertaining to software use.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 12:39 PM

Thinking:

That is the problem. If the dataset isn't very important, who would subscribe? If it is important, the desktop version is in effect somewhat crippled, thus making it a "requirement" to continue subscribing forever.

It's one thing to say that the program seems nebulous and therefore unappealing. It is another thing to complain about it being nebulous and unappealing.

I don't comprehend the sense of entitlement that you (and others...my comments are not directly at you alone) have regarding future features that you do not comprehend. What makes users of Logos think they are entitled to a never-ending wave of upgrades and new features? If you want a feature that's offered, pay for it. If you don't think it's worth it, don't pay for it. If it's too rich for you, don't pay for it. The software isn't crippled because it can't do something that it might be able to do in the future but has never done before.

Think about this like book resources. Do you have AYB or ICC or NIC-OT/NT or any of the Zondervan/Baker/Eerdmans/Nelson/Fortress Press maxi-bundles? If not, why not? Is it because they are too expensive? Do you consider your Logos library crippled because you don't have those resources? Is Logos at fault because you don't have them? No, but if you decide you want these resources, guess what, it is a "requirement" that you pay for them. If you don't pay for them, you aren't left, as you suggest, with "crippled" software. You just don't have super-charged software.

Again, it's one thing to remark that LN isn't appealing to you. Fine. Suggesting that Logos is doing customers wrong by charging for what they offer, however novel their methods and mechanisms may be, is beyond absurd. As always, and as with every resource Logos carries, if you want it at the offered price, get it. Otherwise, don't. Simple. The only thing you are losing (unless you decide you really want it) is something you never had to begin with.

Posts 412
StephenMcC | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 1:04 PM

David Paul:
If you want a feature that's offered, pay for it. If you don't think it's worth it, don't pay for it. If it's too rich for you, don't pay for it. The software isn't crippled because it can't do something that it might be able to do in the future but has never done before.

Well said David. I subscribed for the free month to see what's all about. It has given me an idea of the extras and whether I will actually use them. I don't think I will so I am considering cancelling my subscription when I have finally decided. This is the point - it adds extra if you want it or will use it. If not, my Logos library already has enough for me to do my work. So I am not too worried either way.

Many of our questions are discussed here https://www.logos.com/faq?utm_source=seq_logosnow&utm_medium=email&utm_content=4986023-autoemail-welcome&utm_campaign=promo-logosnowlaunch#LogosNow, at the Logos Now section, and especially for me this point..

What happens if I cancel my subscription?

You will always keep the resources you own and retain access to your notes, documents, and personal settings. You will, however, lose access to the content, tools, datasets, and features included in Logos Now. You will also lose access to the Logos web app, membership benefits, and discounts.

So take it or leave it. We all still have our Logos library that we have been using all these years.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 2:07 PM

David Paul:

Thinking, your last post does a much better job of owning up to your moniker.

Thinking:

Graham Criddle:
There is no requirement on anyone to pay a monthly fee.

I know there is no requirement now, I was wondering out loud if this is going to be the direction that Logos would be going for the future. I remain a bit foggy about it. I am really trying to understand the Logos Now concept.

Is Logos Now really "Logos Early", and Logos desktop is "Logos Mature"? Is Logos Now really "Logos Up-to-Date" 

I think you are starting to get the "Now" part of Logos Now. It isn't just a random name...it actually means something.

Not sure about all of your other ruminations, since I've felt little reason to examine the program's nuances and intricacies. I am not interested in this for a couple of reasons. Most of all, I'm using Vista and so I can't even run L6 even though I own an L6 base package (CE). There are other reasons, too. One thing is certain, though--I don't feel threatened or scared or offended or perplexed or angry or outraged by Logos Now, even though I can't get anything out of it. It is absurd and stupid to become apoplectic over every new thing Bob comes up with, especially when no one is foisting anything on customers against their will. 

The two most short-sighted aspects of the outrage customers have expressed over Logos Now has to do with, first of all, their mind-numbed caterwauling about "losing utility" of what they own (this is impossible) and how they are going "to have to do" this or that as a response to the program's introduction (which is pure nonsense...LN has no effect on them with regard to what they have already spent on Logos products, and it necessitates no action on their part whatsoever).

The most near-sighted (practically to the point of blindness) aspect of all the invective and rage against LN, and Logos innovation in general, is the way customers out of one side of their mouths wring their proverbial hands over the possibility that their costly investment in Logos as a platform could one day vanish in a puff of digital smoke should Logos go bankrupt, while out of the other side of their mouths they pound to smithereens every attempt Bob makes at generating revenue to keep the company healthy, afloat, and moving forward in a rapidly changing business environment.

A Christian Dating site that would address a growing market with thoughtfulness and principle where such things are hard to come by...and probably generate a tremendous amount of operating capital in the process? "HELL NO!!! NO MONEY GRUBBING MANNA CHASING ON MY WATCH!! And while your at it, I want all those extraordinarily expensive updates to keep coming without a hiccup, and I don't want to be bothered with any ads that induce me to provide the company with the financial resources that pay for these things!"

It really starts to make you wonder if all these deeply committed Christians really believe in God or in magic, because magic is the only thing that can account for their irrational cognitive dissonance where Logos's responsibilities and capabilities are concerned. Don't you dare go bankrupt! Don't you dare generate revenue! Don't you dare do anything that I don't approve of! Don't you dare invite me to spend money! Don't you dare innovate! Don't you dare become obsolete! Of course, this is typical Christian behavior, and cognitive dissonance is its modus operandi, its raison d'etre, and its middle name. 

David Paul,

I am saying this not to start something (in truth, I only hope to put an end to it) but to let you know that you have more than crossed the line of impropriety.

I don’t understand why you feel the need to insult copiously those who do not seen Logos Now the same way you do. Why do you feel the need to characterize or more accurately caricature others or their concerns as “absurd and stupid”, “short sighted”, “mind-numbed caterwauling”, “near sighted… to the point of blindness… invective”, “ irrational cognitive dissonance” as a “typical Christian behavior?”

You try so hard to offend others that it has become comical.

There is nothing to gain by claiming the title of forum bully.

Believe it or not, we are not on a playground anymore and far from being persuasive, your diatribe only poorly reflects on you.

I sincerely hope that you will consider how you posts come across before posting in the future. 

Alain 

Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 2:12 PM

Thank you, Alain.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 2:25 PM

StephenMcC:
What happens if I cancel my subscription?

Faithlife looks for new revenue streams elsewhere? Smile

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 12 2015 4:00 PM

David Paul:

Thinking:

That is the problem. If the dataset isn't very important, who would subscribe? If it is important, the desktop version is in effect somewhat crippled, thus making it a "requirement" to continue subscribing forever.

It's one thing to say that the program seems nebulous and therefore unappealing. It is another thing to complain about it being nebulous and unappealing.

I don't comprehend the sense of entitlement that you (and others...my comments are not directly at you alone) have regarding future features that you do not comprehend. What makes users of Logos think they are entitled to a never-ending wave of upgrades and new features? If you want a feature that's offered, pay for it. If you don't think it's worth it, don't pay for it. If it's too rich for you, don't pay for it. The software isn't crippled because it can't do something that it might be able to do in the future but has never done before.

Think about this like book resources. Do you have AYB or ICC or NIC-OT/NT or any of the Zondervan/Baker/Eerdmans/Nelson/Fortress Press maxi-bundles? If not, why not? Is it because they are too expensive? Do you consider your Logos library crippled because you don't have those resources? Is Logos at fault because you don't have them? No, but if you decide you want these resources, guess what, it is a "requirement" that you pay for them. If you don't pay for them, you aren't left, as you suggest, with "crippled" software. You just don't have super-charged software.

Again, it's one thing to remark that LN isn't appealing to you. Fine. Suggesting that Logos is doing customers wrong by charging for what they offer, however novel their methods and mechanisms may be, is beyond absurd. As always, and as with every resource Logos carries, if you want it at the offered price, get it. Otherwise, don't. Simple. The only thing you are losing (unless you decide you really want it) is something you never had to begin with.

In some ways your characterization of the endless hand wringing or cheering for Logos seems quite accurate to me.  I also understand that no one really has to pay the price for this or that mythical wonder addition or service that is added to already outrageously expensive software.  What the threat, imo, that Logos is dangerously toying with is that the customers in this software/company/service will no longer support the endless meanderings into multiple new "streams of revenue".  When only True Believers in the big dream of success are the only voices heard I will assume the end is near...until then I will grab my popcorn, turn on a useable software program, and watch the drama of life in the Logos universe.

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