[request] Logos' greatest weakness...

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 19 2015 9:19 AM

... is not it's lack of speed. It's the lack of serious support for the Original Languages!! Please let's rally for improving Greek and Hebrew support by voting here!

If you get a really zealous spurt (like me Stick out tongue) I'd invite you to send the link below to all your 'Logosian' friends!

http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/7592991-please-support-hebrew-actually

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 19 2015 9:38 PM

Please elaborate how Nikkud searching of Masoretic Punctuation would be helpful.

 


Masoretic Punctuation
Punctuation, the most important product of the activity of the Masorites of the early geonic period, itself became an object of their studies; so that the determination of vocalization and its variations formed the basis of a controversy between Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali, who may be termed the last Masorites in the strict sense of the word. “When the reading of the Biblical text with the help of points to indicate vowels and accents had once been fixed in writing, it became all-important to add these points accurately and correctly to the consonantal manuscripts of the Bible. Punctuation thus became a learned profession, even though the “punctuators”(“naḳdanim”), who flourished especially in Germany, France, and England, are not mentioned by this title before the twelfth century. In the establishment of their rules, on which some of them wrote special treatises, the best known being the “Sefer ha-Naḳḳud” of Moses ha-Naḳdan, the naḳdanim made frequent use of the writings of the grammarians (see Steinschneider, l.c. p. 15; Zunz, “Z. G.” pp. 107 et seq.; and NAḲDANIM). Hebrew grammatical science is based upon the Masoretic punctuation and its rules. The “niḳḳud” (a term first found in Ben Asher; Bacher, l.c. p. 26) brought together the most important material for a knowledge of the Hebrew language; and it may even be said that in the Masoretic punctuation, and the phonology and morphology which it established, the whole of Hebrew grammar was implied. The first Hebrew grammarian known, Saadia, wrote a work on “niḳḳud,” although this is known only from a citation (in Rashi on Ps. 45:10), and Judah Ḥayyuj also wrote a “Kitab al-Tanḳiṭ,” or “Book of Punctuation,” containing rules for vowels and accents, and devoting itself particularly to the segolate nouns. More closely related to the real teachings of the Masorites is the “Introduction for the Reader of the Bible,” written by another grammarian of the Spanish golden age, Judah ibn Balaam. The theory of vowels and accents, however, is treated by the older Hebrew grammarians only in passing, or even receives no special notice at all, since they considered this subject as the special property of the Masorah; nor was it until centuries later that this portion of Hebrew grammar became an integral part of the science under the name of “niḳḳud.”


Singer, I. (Ed.). (1901–1906). In The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 12 Volumes (Vol. 10, p. 272). New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 1:10 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
it may even be said that in the Masoretic punctuation, and the phonology and morphology which it established, the whole of Hebrew grammar was implied.

It seems to me that your citation partially answers your own question. To adequately elaborate I would need several pages, but suffice it to say that all that we take for granted in terms of grammatical/syntactical analysis is almost if not entirely based on Nikkud. Without Nikkud every grammarian and syntax guru would be almost completely lost. One might argue that we already have grammatical databases that we can consult, but you might be aware that the numerous analyses do not agree. Being able to search on Nikkud/dagesh/form combinations, frees you from the slavery of believing the grammars just "because grammar X says so." Over the past several years I have often wished to search for every occurrence of a specific vowel pattern irregardless of the word (this is currently impossible (in Logos, but not in the competition)).

As far as the cantillation mark side of Nikkud goes there are also numerous ways in which I wished to use this. One significant way (which might strike a chord in you Big Smile) is that I wanted to create a visual filter that would highlight/markup the text according to the pausal force if the cantillation mark. This would help hugely in easily visualizing where the different breaks/pauses are (some of which make a significant difference in meaning!). As you may be aware the cantillation marks serve three primary functions...1) musical 2) identifying stress & 3) syntax. It is with regard to the area of syntax that the cantillation is of most interest to Christian scholars, and that I wish to see the ability to do primary rather than secondary research. Let me find all the instances of a certain ta'am and see for myself which environment it occurs in and how it affects it's surroundings, and don't make me blindly believe those who make claims about the cantillation marks!

Sorry if this isn't coherent! I'm literally dozing...zzzzz I've been up for nearly 19 hours if that's excuse enough! Maybe in a day or two I'll find time to respond more satisfactorily.

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 4:56 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Please elaborate how Nikkud searching of Masoretic Punctuation would be helpful

Check out the following examples:

 

David Roberts:


Features like:

  • Searching for words that have the same vowel combinations, but different consonants. אָשִׁירָה and אָעִירָה (Psalm 108:2–3)
  • Searching for specific consonant-vowel (or vowel-consonant) combinations which could appear anywhere within a given word. e.g. י ֶ
  • Every time he mappiq appears.
  • Every time ḥolam ḥaser appears.
  • Every time a particular letter of the Hebrew alphabet occurs at the beginning, middle or end of a word. e.g. ט or צ.
  • Every time א comes after a consonant, but not a vowel. e.g. מַלְאַךְ (Mal'akh)

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/60690.aspx?PageIndex=1

Also check out: 

https://www.logos.com/support/lbs/HebrewRegularExpressions

Also, I still hope to one day be able to search on the ta`amei ha-mikra 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 5:47 AM

BKMitchell:

It's interesting (but disheartening) to me that in a post that is more than 7 years old, a Logos employee acknowledged the [need] for this and yet we still don't have it! In fact, we've regressed since L5-6 don't support regular expressions.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 8:07 AM

Reuben, I like the suggestion and voted for it but I think it would be better if the title on uservoice was more precisely what you are asking. The description explains it yes, but if you want people who see your title else than by reading this thread to be attracted to it in the midst of a vast sea of suggestions, making it more pointed could be more effective. Just a suggestion...

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 8:45 AM

Francis:

Reuben, I like the suggestion and voted for it but I think it would be better if the title on uservoice was more precisely what you are asking. The description explains it yes, but if you want people who see your title else than by reading this thread to be attracted to it in the midst of a vast sea of suggestions, making it more pointed could be more effective. Just a suggestion...

Thanks for voting, Francis! I see what you're saying about the title, but I'm not aware of any way to edit a UserVoice suggestion. Am I simply missing it?

FWIW... My initial thought had been that the suggestion would only be appreciated by users who are interested in working with Hebrew directly, and that all such users would be interested in how Hebrew support is lacking, thereby being "lured" to read the description. 😉

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 4:02 PM

Reuben Helmuth:
It's interesting (but disheartening) to me that in a post that is more than 7 years old, a Logos employee acknowledged the [need] for this and yet we still don't have it!

I agree, and this is one of the reason why those needing these abilities turn to other software that readily has those functions and that are clearly more serious about Classical Hebrew than Logos/faithlife is. Also, for a long time I have wished that I could also use Logos to run queries on the טעמי המקרא Ta-amei Ha-mikra (Cantillation Marks) and Cantillation trope patterns and not be limited to simply one word accent sensitive searching.

As, Theological Library Software and as an E-reader I have nothing but respect for Logos in fact it is awesome for those tasks!  But when it comes time for me to study the Hebrew Bible directly and attempt to gain first hand knowledge I rarely use Logos because it simply can't answer the type of questions or run the type of queries I need most. I do hope, that this will change in the near future. 

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 4:09 PM

Reuben Helmuth:
... is not it's lack of speed. It's the lack of serious support for the Original Languages!! Please let's rally for improving Greek and Hebrew support by voting here!

I have voted!

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 5:58 PM

Without trying to start anything, just out of sake of curiosity, does a Bible program that contains a "lamp" support this? I'm just curious if only Logos doesn't support this or if it's a more widespread issue in genera.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 8:21 PM

Nathan Parker:
just out of sake of curiosity, does a Bible program that contains a "lamp" support this?

Yes, Nathan, "A" company does support the very things I'm suggesting (though not as elegantly, IMHO, as what I'm envisioning for Logos)! 

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2015 5:03 AM

Nathan Parker:

Without trying to start anything, just out of sake of curiosity, does a Bible program that contains a "lamp" support this? I'm just curious if only Logos doesn't support this or if it's a more widespread issue in genera.

Yes, the program with the "Lamp" does allow one to run queries on vowels(Nekudot/נְקֻדּוֹת ) and/as well as on cantillation marks without forcing you to specify word or character and it has have a very intuitive palette that let's you select graphically. 

There is also another advanced program that also allows for these searches the one with 'Paul teaching timothy' or sometimes just "Paul's head". However, that program requires you to enter in codes on the command line. 

So, to answer your question Nathan out of what I consider the top three professional grade Bible programs Logos is the only one that can not run these types of queries. 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2015 4:38 AM

BKMitchell:
out of what I consider the top three professional grade Bible programs Logos is the only one that can not run these types of queries. 

What a shame, huh?!

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