A plea for better notetaking within L4

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Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 12:37 AM

I came onboard with L4 under the special pricing because I liked some things that I saw. Unfortunately, I decided to return the product for the following reasons...and I post this only because I know (yikes, hope)  that management (who is that anyway?) is monitoring this thread.

  1. L4 in its current release is less functional then its predecessor L3, and it is promoted as an UPGRADE.  Yes it has some cool new gizmos, and it looks graphically slick,  but it is actually less functional because it lacks many of the cut/copy paste and even note taking functionality of the OLD version.  
  2. L4 in its current release is at best a beta...the speed of windows scrolling and redraws is abysmal.  To get decent performance you must reduce, quite drastically the amount of content (or window size)  which is displayed....and thats the whole point of the "upgrade".   
  3. L3 which I downloaded and installed is actually quite a good product, very snappy, has decent functionality.  But...principal/time management makes me decide, its just not worth it to buy the "upgrade" of L4 .  I don't buy upgrades to become a beta tester.  Seriously folks..i understand the desire and need to get upgrades out, and it does offer the benefits of cash infusion, but L4 is in no way shape or form a "finished" or release quality product.  IMO

Now, all that said.  I do see the vision of L4.  I have used ALL of the competitive products...there is something special possible here...  Fix the graphical speed issue NOW.  Add some SUPER SPECIAL authoring features where users can share/collaborate on  their invaluable content with others, keep your payment plan options, continue to make available a wide variety of books/content, (hmm is the Stone Edition Chumash available that would be way cool(saw my dusty copy today and picked it up, some very interesting commentary there, total side note))...AHHH take a breath Nathan, and I will TOTALLY be there with my dollars.

And...if the MAC version has to be postponed to achieve this nirvana of biblestudyhood (Oy! is that Kosher?)  Then just do it..we can all run our VM's if we have too.  (Note the audible sucking noise of battery being drained dry....get a cord...)

Anyway, enjoyed checking out L4 will be watching how things go....have dollars will travel.

Posts 18715
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 12:39 AM

Terry Poperszky:

Stein Dahl:
I wonder what it would take for Logos to partner with Microsoft t

I think it involves signing a document in blood and turning over ones soul...

Bob already escaped from Microsoft's clutches once (when he left there to start his own company). Then he did it again when they redesigned Logos 4 to not be dependent on IE as a rendering engine anymore. I'm sure he doesn't want to have to do it a third time... Smile

Posts 269
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 1:02 AM

Rosie Perera:

Terry Poperszky:

Stein Dahl:
I wonder what it would take for Logos to partner with Microsoft t

I think it involves signing a document in blood and turning over ones soul...

Bob already escaped from Microsoft's clutches once (when he left there to start his own company). Then he did it again when they redesigned Logos 4 to not be dependent on IE as a rendering engine anymore. I'm sure he doesn't want to have to do it a third time... Smile

 

Good point Rosie, ( I especially had to laugh at Terry's comment - just because it's probably true!)

I wonder if there is another good note taking software that Logos could work with and possibly integrate into L4. 

Being able to actually save ALL of your research (not just some minor annotations) on a topic or passage that you've studied, so that you can use it to create messages or Bible studies, is what I would like to be able to do with the notes feature. 

To do that would require something a bit better than the notes feature as it is now in L4, I think.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 1:12 PM

Stein Dahl:

I wonder what it would take for Logos to partner with Microsoft to create a special version of OneNote that integrates into Logos 4, with all the linking and search capabilities that everyone wants. 

Of course I'm envisioning a Logos add-in resource that would be available to purchase.

Not sure if it's "do-able" but it would be cool.  No?

I would be happy if they could embed the word processor that comes with our OS into v4.  

Posts 1344
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 1:45 PM

Rosie Perera:
Bob already escaped from Microsoft's clutches once (when he left there to start his own company). Then he did it again when they redesigned Logos 4 to not be dependent on IE as a rendering engine anymore. I'm sure he doesn't want to have to do it a third time... Smile

But isn't L4 written with WPF - Windows Presentation Framework - Microsoft's latest creation?

Seriously, I really hope that while Bob and Logos go through their philosophical deliberations ("we're a Bible software company so we're not in the wordprocessor or note-taker business"), at least they should quickly fix the most obvious annoyances, such as losing formatting during copy and paste, Bible references don't highlight during copy and paste, inability to hyperlink effectively, etc.  

To me, these are defects - BUGS - in the existing software and have to be fixed.  The philosophical discussions can wait.

My two cents.

Peter

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 3:36 PM

PeterLi:

Seriously, I really hope that while Bob and Logos go through their philosophical deliberations ("we're a Bible software company so we're not in the wordprocessor or note-taker business"), at least they should quickly fix the most obvious annoyances, such as losing formatting during copy and paste, Bible references don't highlight during copy and paste, inability to hyperlink effectively, etc.  

To me, these are defects - BUGS - in the existing software and have to be fixed.  The philosophical discussions can wait.

My two cents.

We're up to at least 4 cents. Smile

Seriously, we don't need a full word processor/publisher. We need an effective method for preserving notes in the various ways each of us takes notes - outlines, lists, indentation, font variations, highlighting, charts and graphics. Graphics obviously not created in Logos but preserved in Logos. The current beta makes several positive steps ... we can hope that additional steps are made in the next version.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 4:31 PM

Nathan,  I'd disagree, but your post is wwwaaaayyyyyy off topic.  We are having a note discussion here, but there are lots of already existing threads for your post, or you could start a new one.

Nathan Barnes:
I came onboard with L4 under the special pricing because I liked some things that I saw. Unfortunately, I decided to return the product for the following reasons...and I post this only because I know (yikes, hope)  that management (who is that anyway?) is monitoring this thread.

As far a L4 and the possible onenote partnership with the evil MS empire - I think a few of the copy / paste / print / link fixes that are listed as in the works will be close to enough to make me happy.  Since opensource is a bad word in L4 and MS, we probably cannot expect any third party add-ins to help out in this area.   

I'd rather have a powerful note app in L4 - it would be so cool to do a search and have it come up with all the notes I've taken in the past on that passage.  But until that happens, onenote is my answer.  (And you can use it for free now - office 10 is in beta and you can use it free until November).

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 5:30 PM

Michael Birney:
We are having a note discussion here, but there are lots of already existing threads for your post, or you could start a new one.

I'm sorry Michael, I just assumed that people would be reading the entire thread, and my remarks here are spot on topic.  I returned L4 because of its failure in "note-taking" ability.  Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough....I'll try again.

We do not need better note taking...we need full on AUTHORING in L4...instead of "notes (or in addition to I suppose).  Commentary files are fully searchable, copy/pasteable NOW in L4.  The same also with other content...like Bible files, Topic files etc.

If L4 had PBB support built-in without having to jump through all kinds of hoops we would have a note system on STEROIDS!  Who needs notes if I can create my own commentary file?  Understand?

On top of having a cool note system you could also expand the system to include SHARING your commentary file (or whatever file type you choose to create) with other L4 users (think more L4 sales orders here).  Imagine sharing your commentary files with I don't know maybe your bible study group, or church.  Maybe collaborate on a commentary or topical study file with a co-author(s).

Imagine having a system in place where L4 users could subscribe to "Public"  user files for download and/or subscription.

Anyway I have previously stated all this, within this thread sorry for the rehash, hope this helps.  You can all see the thread on "L4 User Authoring"

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 7:02 PM

Nathan,  Authoring = notes.  Sorry about that.

Your right, missing cut/copy/paste of old note taking.

I wonder if the authoring / sharing you are speaking of, and describe in your second post is very possible technically just not possible practically.  Lets say you do all this work, put all your thoughts with lots of notes and quotes from many sources, and then you share it with me (this of course seems unlikely at the moment, but people get past things).  Now I have access to a lot of material in a searchable form which I have not bought from logos.   In fact, what is to keep someone from copying a whole chapter of a book, or 2 or 3 and sharing it, with a few of their own thoughts of course, but basically I have a their whole resource?

Powerful authoring would be great - I think sharing would be nice, but probably will not happen.

And just to be defensive, there is a lot more off topic in your first post than your second.

 

Nathan Barnes:

  1. L4 in its current release is less functional then its predecessor L3, and it is promoted as an UPGRADE.  Yes it has some cool new gizmos, and it looks graphically slick,  but it is actually less functional because it lacks many of the cut/copy paste and even note taking functionality of the OLD version.  

Now, all that said.  I do see the vision of L4.  I have used ALL of the competitive products...there is something special possible here...   Add some SUPER SPECIAL authoring features where users can share/collaborate on  their invaluable content with others, 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 7:16 PM

Nathan Barnes:
If L4 had PBB support built-in without having to jump through all kinds of hoops we would have a note system on STEROIDS!  Who needs notes if I can create my own commentary file?  Understand?

For the way I prefer to organize and retrieve notes, commentaries are not an equivalent. For supporting documentation the PBB is an appropriate vehicle. In notes I put short questions, observations and sampled answers intended to be copied into Bible studies. The Bible studies themselves could be appropriately PBB's

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 9:06 PM

Notetaking and reading go hand-in-hand. It seems so obvious to so many of us that quality notetaking is important. L4 notes are not even adequate, and far from full featured. Notetaking has always been my biggest disappointment in Logos. I've always hoped that an improvement would be coming but it never comes.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 9:06 PM

I also feel that the notes aspect of L3/L4 is nearly as important as the search function that it is so superlative at performing.  In fact, I am currently writing a book and I am essentially composing a great deal of it using the notes function of L3. I have been a detractor of L4 generally because, of the 10-20 things that are most important to the way I use L3, almost none of them translated to L4.  Sure, L4 is flashy, and powerful...some of its whiz-bang tech is impressive...but for me, I rarely open L4...because every time I do I'm reminded of what it isn't, and I get depressed.  I want to love L4...but it just isn't happening.  Some of that has to do with this topic of notes...and the concept some have brought up of "authoring".  I'm not sure if their concept of authoring is the same thing I have in mind, but it's probably close enough.

At the Camp Logos in Tennessee back in early December, I showed Bob how I use notes...as in the example below:

Granted, this section of scripture is what my book is about, so it is a bit more "lit up" than most other sections of my Bible, but this illustrates somewhat what the potential of notes can, could, and should be.  What I can't capture and show are the pop-ups that show up when the cursor hovers over the note icon.  In L3, some of my notes run 20 pages or longer.  When the pop-up window pops up it covers the whole right side of the screen, but anything that goes past that pop-up window is relegated to "ethereal nowhere land".  What I wanted to have was a "pin" feature that would allow the note to remain on the screen with a scrolling feature so that I could then access the entire note through the pop-up.  The reason and the point?  PRESENTATION!!!!

This aspect is the part of Logos software's potential that seems to escape Bob.  To do what I want to do, he would have me port everything into PowerPoint and gussy it up there.  WHY?  Logos software, as Morris Proctor is so apt to point out, is a phenomenal jaw-dropping program.  We see what it is capable of and say, "WOW!"  But we then have to take all of our "input"--particularly our Notes--and port over to a scrawny piece of junk like PowerPoint??  That's nuts.  Logos should have a powerhouse of presentation tools built right into the interface, particularly the Notes interface.  When I take notes, I do it with PRESENTATION in mind--I want the power and beauty and power and power and beauty of this spectacular program to have its awe-inspiring effect on the people I present to.  To be frank, it is the worst marketing flub I can imagine for Logos to take its amazingly bright candle and  then (due to a lack of perception of what can and should be its best and most powerful marketing angle--simply showing people "what it is capable of doing") hide all that power under a basket.  This forces those who use the program to "abandon ship" to accomplish our presentation in the dinghy we know as PowerPoint.  But in this case, the luxury liner hasn't hit an iceberg; instead the captain has scuttled the ship.

Case in point: I have notes in L3 that I can bring up as a pop-up when doing Bible studies which have tremendous detail, including Hebrew and Greek.  I can teach for 5 minutes off of a single pop-up...just as long as I don't move the cursor on the screen.  Like I said, some of my notes fill the right side of the screen from top to bottom.  I copied some of my notes from L3 to L4 when I was at the Camp Logos and was flabbergasted to find that the note was only two inches square.  I took my laptop to Bob and asked what was up, and he said that was by DESIGN.  Some people had apparently complained because pop-ups for notes (and in some cases the Strong's citations) would pop-up and fill the whole screen, which of course meant they couldn't read the underlying text. Just then a guy who seemed to be an employee came up and said, "Yeah, it fills the screen and you can't read what's underneath."

I couldn't believe what I was hearing.  It's kind of like saying that because sometimes when a car is parked on a hill, if the car isn't left in gear and the parking brake isn't engaged, the car can roll down the hill and cause a big problem...so we solved the problem by putting square tires on the car and now the threat of rolling downhill is removed!  Um...that's not a solution...it's a functional disaster!  Not only are the notes in L4 only two inches square, but to make sure an offending pop-up doesn't continue to offend, pop-ups are programmed to only stay up for a couple of seconds.  I was made painfully and uncomfortably aware of this design Edsel when I encountered a built-in informational pop-up which came up as a footnote.  I literally had to move the cursor off the footnote and then back over the footnote to get it to show up more than a dozen times in order to read to whole footnote.  That is just silly absurd.  And why this??  Because some yahoo was bothered by a pop-up covering the screen.  I have a bit of advice for the folks bugged by this "non-problem".  MOVE THE CURSOR.

I have simply gotten in the habit of moving the cursor to the margin to avoid pop-ups...and I do it almost unconsciously.  You know why?  Because I really LIKE HAVING ROUND TIRES!  Having pop-ups that are not only as big as the screen but which stay put is a HUGE ASSET to the Logos program.  Or I should say WAS a huge asset to the Logos program.  As I suggested earlier, I also would like to see a scrolling feature for the notes I create.  This is already possible because I often come across notes and footnotes in my library that require scrolling.  Why is this function available for "in-house" notes but not made available to the unwashed masses?  To work around this problem in L3, I have to add a second or third note for each additional page of notes (as is the case for the three notes attached to v. 24).  But for the notes I have that are 10-20 pages long (and they are that long for a reason with plenty of pertinent info), that would require having 10-20 note icons in the middle of the text, which is both unwieldy and ridiculous.

Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board.  I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program.  It draws people in.  It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do.  Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities.  The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program.  The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas.  But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor.  What a shame.  That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step.  I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood.  It is true for me.  I hope Bob will see this.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 10:35 PM

David Paul:
I also feel that the notes aspect of L3/L4 is nearly as important as the search function

Well presented examples. I agree with the need of pop-ups to show "all" of the note. For me, it's a matter of showing the entire graphic organizer, tree diagram, comparison chart ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 11:24 PM

Wait...what is this I am reading??!!  MJ...are you really "agreeing" with something I have posted?  Can this be true??  Perhaps I should run outside and see if Jupiter has aligned with Mars!  Have we returned to the Age of Aquarius?!?!?! 

Who says miracles don't happen!!!   Wink

Posts 269
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 11:51 PM

tom collinge:
I would be happy if they could embed the word processor that comes with our OS into v4.
Tom.  That's a fantastic idea!  It's already there by default included in the OS.  For me on Windows XP and Win7 that would be Word Pad.  I'm not sure what it is on a Mac. 

But it would be awesome if Logos could integrate usage of it in Logos 4 and include linking and all the other features that people have been asking for. 

This would give us what we've been asking for - a more robust note taking system - and wouldn't require Logos to "reinvent the wheel" creating a special word processor.

This is the best idea I've heard so farLogos are you listening?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:24 AM

David Paul:
MJ...are you really "agreeing" with something I have posted?

I apologize. I take it all back. I don't want to be responsible for any health consequences of the shock!Embarrassed

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 269
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:30 AM

David Paul:
Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board.  I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program.  It draws people in.  It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do.  Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities.  The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program.  The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas.  But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor.  What a shame.  That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step.  I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood.  It is true for me.  I hope Bob will see this.
David, I only quoted your last paragraph, but I agree with your entire post.  I also use notes extensively (did in L3 and even in The WORD) and actually would like to KEEP all of the Bible research  I collect and store in my notes - INSIDE of Logos 4

What part of this doesn't Logos understand?  So many Logos CUSTOMERS  - (Are you listening Logos?) - are asking - no, PLEADING for this feature. 

If Logos isn't going to develope a more robust note taking system, then at least use the default word processor that comes natively with our OS (as Tom Collinge suggested in another post here). 

Make Logos 4 USE that default word processor and even integrate usage of it into Logos 4 - customizing it so that links work and searching works - and all the features people want work with it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:48 AM

Stein Dahl:
actually would like to KEEP all of the Bible research  I collect and store in my notes - INSIDE of Logos 4

I agree wholeheartedly. With the Search capabilities and the Favorites to keep links, Logos is well-situated to become the repository of all one's Bible study documents.This doesn't mean that Logos must be the creator of all the documents - it means being able to link and index documents within Logos ... the reason I frequently copy diagrams into notes. Simple charts, chiasms, templates for form structures ... Logos is so close

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:14 AM

Stein Dahl:

David Paul:
Basically Bob told me that what I want just isn't going to happen. Maybe that will change--if my hometown team the Saints can win the Superbowl, I suppose nearly anything is possible. But we will probably have to riot to get it on the drawing board.  I know that I OFTEN have people ask me about the Bible program I use because I teach from the program.  It draws people in.  It is amazing stuff...but right now, even in L3, which has more current presentation potential than L4 does, I have to fight the program to get it do what it should be designed to do.  Logos should be BIBLE PRESENTATION SOFTWARE with search and study capabilities.  The WHIZ-BANG EFFECT that the software has in its little pinky is known only to us highbrows who use the program.  The power the program possesses should have the functionality that would make Logos know by name in every church in the nation, not to mention overseas.  But at present sadly, it does the grunt work and then consigns itself to anonymity by giving a much lesser program like PowerPoint the glory of presenting the fruit of Logos's labor.  What a shame.  That is a mistake in my book...and the choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar backwards step.  I hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood.  It is true for me.  I hope Bob will see this.

David, I only quoted your last paragraph, but I agree with your entire post. 

In the immortal words of Sally Field:  "YOU LIKE ME...YOU REALLY, REALLY LIKE ME!!!"

Gotta love a flying nun! Stick out tongue

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 9:49 AM

Michael Birney:
missing cut/copy/paste of old note taking.

Yes, and no way to print, or drag/drop into handouts...can't do anything with notes except view them.  Interesting idea here:  How about moving them into a floating window that you can drag onto a projection for presentation.  If we add a simple RTF type editor with say a drag/drop type of button which we can drag and drop into one of our resources in L4 thus creating a link(s) save/sync this file as commentary or whatever we have all the missing features NOW.  No more coding required for the current note system.

Michael Birney:
wonder if the authoring / sharing you are speaking of, and describe in your second post is very possible technically just not possible practically.  Lets say you do all this work, put all your thoughts with lots of notes and quotes from many sources, and then you share it with me (this of course seems unlikely at the moment, but people get past things).  Now I have access to a lot of material in a searchable form which I have not bought from logos.   In fact, what is to keep someone from copying a whole chapter of a book, or 2 or 3 and sharing it, with a few of their own thoughts of course, but basically I have a their whole resource?

Ok, valid points here are a couple of thoughts.  

Every time you copy/paste from a resource its source is automatically appended (is that in L3? I know it is in other products), and maybe in the footnotes (or wherever) a link is available for users to Purchase that resource if it is not already in their library.  (Revenue)

What is preventing us from copy/paste the entire NASB into a doc and calling it the "Nathan Bible" now?

Michael Birney:
there is a lot more off topic in your first post than your second.

Yes I know, thats why I prefaced my comments saying the post was for the Management (Bob? I guess not sure) because when I called Logos I got a "new girl" and was not sure she would let management know why I was returning the product and I thought this would be the most appropriate place as it is my greatest concern with L4.  I fully expect to be back with my dollars at a future date...hope so.

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