QUESTION: Lectionary for Mass in Liturgy Layout

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Apr 28 2015 3:31 AM

I noticed yesterday that the official Lectionary for Mass is now available for pre-order.  Hopefully someday this will go into production and my question is really oriented there.

Will this official Lectionary for Mass be the text used when clicking into the Liturgy Layout from the homepage?  (versus the current lectionary)

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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 6:58 AM

I couldn't say, but that would seem to make the most sense to me.

So the Catholic Lectionary I have is basically just a listing of what the Mass readings are by book, chapter, and verse?  And then Logos/Verbum just pulls the text from my preferred translation?  I didn't realize that. Embarrassed  I thought I already had this resource.  I guess I need to pay more attention! 

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 7:34 AM

Average Joe:

So the Catholic Lectionary I have is basically just a listing of what the Mass readings are by book, chapter, and verse?   

Correct.  Therefore, some things are missing ... like Sequences.

Posts 235
Brian Losabia | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 7:40 AM

Hey AJ, the Catholic Lectionary also has a little drop down menu to let you select any Bible in your library, not just your preferred.  You can brush up on your Spanish/French/Latin/Greek/???, check out how the readings would sound like from the Amplified Bible, etc.

Other resources (that I know of) with changeable text are the Eusebian Canons (ancient parallel Gospel resource, very useful) and the Faithlife Study Bible (FSB).

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 7:43 AM

Steve:

Average Joe:

So the Catholic Lectionary I have is basically just a listing of what the Mass readings are by book, chapter, and verse?   

Correct.  Therefore, some things are missing ... like Sequences.

You can even see in today's Daily Mass readings the slight differences in translation between the lectionary and Catholic Bibles, that sometimes happen just because of clarity (there are frequent examples of pronouns in the Bible being replaced by a proper name in the lectionary reading to help with comprehension, but I don't have an example at the moment).

But today - the first line of the first reading matches the NAB, it's a little off from the NABRE. The first line of the Gospel matches the NABRE, but is slightly off from the NAB.

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 11:02 AM

As others have noted, the Logos Catholic Lectionary resource is a tool that allows you to look up, read and study the readings for Mass in any translation you choose, but the Lectionary for Mass is the official text of the lectionary for use in the United States.

The official text is based on the New American Bible with Revised New Testament and Psalms (i.e. the NAB as it stood in the 1990s), but doesn't match it or any other translation exactly.

Changes were made from the NAB for a number of different reasons. Sometimes small changes were made for simple clarity as Don mentioned--most prominently, the official text often adds an brief "incipit" to provide necessary context explaining who's speaking, who's being addressed, etc. Sometimes, changes were made because of differences between the NAB's base texts and those of the Nova Vulgata--particularly in Sirach.

In some cases, changes were made because the Vatican was concerned that the translation of the revised NAB NT and Psalms obscures the meaning or traditional interpretations that are often the basis for selection in the lectionary. This is particularly the case with the inclusive language of the revised NAB Psalms. Many psalms are traditionally read (and paired with readings in the lectionary) as referring to Christ, but this may be obscured by the use of "they" instead of "he" in the NAB's revised Psalms. (E.g., NAB Psalm 1:1 has "Happy those who do not follow ...", while the Lectionary has "Blessed the man who follows not ...".)

Note too that that edition of the NAB is no longer sold. The 2011 New American Bible Revised Edition has a revised Old Testament (including re-revised Psalms), which means it differs even further from the official liturgical text.

Some other differences between the dynamic text Logos lectionary and the official Lectionary for Mass:

  • The dynamic text feature used to pull text out of your Bible translation into the lectionary resource is only accurate to the verse level, so when a reading starts or stops in the middle of a verse (e.g. "15a", "30b"), you'll need to reference the official text to see the exact break point.
  • The Psalm Responses and verses for the Alleluia and Lenten Gospel Acclamation are translated by ICEL rather than being taken from the NAB, so these will nearly always differ. In some cases, they're not taken from a Biblical text at all, so they can't be pulled into the dynamic text resource. (These are indicated by the word "Text" in the dynamic text resource.) The official text has to be referenced for these.
  • For the Responsorial Psalms, the official text indicates when the response is to be said.
  • The Lectionary for Mass includes the General Introduction to the Lectionary, which explains the principles behind the Liturgy of the Word and the Lectionary and how it is to be used.

So, in summary--the Logos Catholic Lectionary resource is a great tool for study and devotion, but it's not a replacement for the official text, particularly if you're preparing for the celebration of the liturgy.

Steve:
Will this official Lectionary for Mass be the text used when clicking into the Liturgy Layout from the homepage?  (versus the current lectionary)

There are some technical things to figure out, but we're planning on making it possible to have the official text available from the homepage--both as an option for the text pulled dynamically into the Logos lectionary resource and opened behind this to the proper location as we do with the Roman Missal. 

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 11:58 AM

Really exciting news, thanks!

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 12:00 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:
So, in summary--the Logos Catholic Lectionary resource is a great tool for study and devotion, but it's not a replacement for the official text, particularly if you're preparing for the celebration of the liturgy.

The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy. This is important too.

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Jeremy Priest | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 12:43 PM

Great explanation, Louis!

Posts 274
Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 7:19 AM

Good info!  Looks like another resource I will really want to have. Big Smile

What are the chances of getting a reverse interlinear for the Lectionary, then?  I would think that would be super helpful to priests and deacons.

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 9:48 AM

SineNomine:
The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy. This is important too.

Good point. The dynamic text Catholic Lectionary will remain a useful tool for many users, particularly outside the U.S. (And, were we to obtain the lectionaries for Canada, Britain, etc., they would have similar advantages for users there that the U.S. lectionary has for U.S. users.)

Average Joe:
What are the chances of getting a reverse interlinear for the Lectionary, then?  I would think that would be super helpful to priests and deacons.

This would be very cool, but, unfortunately, it's probably not likely to happen any time soon. Basically, when we align a Bible to an edition of the original text, we're starting with two documents that are already nearly identical in structure and share a reference scheme that aligns them at a very granular level. Aligning the lectionary to the original Biblical languages would require overcoming some significant hurdles. (What is likely is that you'll see a reverse interlinear for the NABRE, which, despite the differences I discussed above, is still pretty close to the lectionary.)

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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 12:57 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:

Average Joe:
What are the chances of getting a reverse interlinear for the Lectionary, then?  I would think that would be super helpful to priests and deacons.

This would be very cool, but, unfortunately, it's probably not likely to happen any time soon. Basically, when we align a Bible to an edition of the original text, we're starting with two documents that are already nearly identical in structure and share a reference scheme that aligns them at a very granular level. Aligning the lectionary to the original Biblical languages would require overcoming some significant hurdles. (What is likely is that you'll see a reverse interlinear for the NABRE, which, despite the differences I discussed above, is still pretty close to the lectionary.)

Yes, that makes sense.  I can see how that would be a lot more complicated.  I would definitely settle for a reverse interlinear of the NABRE. Smile

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 7:24 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:

SineNomine:
The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy. This is important too.

Good point. The dynamic text Catholic Lectionary will remain a useful tool for many users, particularly outside the U.S. (And, were we to obtain the lectionaries for Canada, Britain, etc., they would have similar advantages for users there that the U.S. lectionary has for U.S. users.)

I hope that you are trying to acquire them. Given that some of the Canadian lectionary volumes are presently available for free in .pdf format from the CCCB website, I would expect the CCCB to be open to working with you on this.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 7 2015 2:33 PM

SineNomine:
The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy.

The website now seems willing to allow non-Americans to preorder the American lectionary set.

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 7 2015 5:28 PM

SineNomine:

SineNomine:
The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy.

The website now seems willing to allow non-Americans to preorder the American lectionary set.

I'm sorry to say that this is only due to a bug on the website (thank you for reporting it Sad). As the product page indicates, we do not have permission to sell the Lectionary outside the United States. We are working on resolving the bug, but, unfortunately, we will be forced to cancel any orders from outside the United States made in the meantime, since our licenses forbid us from honoring them.

I realize that our problems with international licensing are great source of frustration for our users (most infamously, with the Catechism). Please believe me when I say that we share your frustration. (We really want to sell you the Catechism!)

The management of rights to ecclesiastical texts is often complicated, requiring navigation of a maze of different bodies, each usually having limited jurisdiction and authority (yay, subsidiarity) and limited resources (being non-profits) for handling new situations that weren't imagined when these systems were created in the world before digital publishing and the World Wide Web.

We are trying our best to work through that maze, building relationships with the various ecclesiastical bodies and rights-holders and hoping that things will get easier as the Church adjusts to the digital age. We really appreciate your patience.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 7 2015 6:07 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:
I'm sorry to say that this is only due to a bug on the website (thank you for reporting it Sad).

I thought it might be a bug. I didn't order the American lectionary, but I probably would order the Canadian one. (It would depend on the price.)

Posts 274
Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2015 6:15 AM

Louis St. Hilaire:

SineNomine:

SineNomine:
The Catholic Lectionary is also in many respects more useful for non-Americans than is the American lectionary--which the website won't let us buy.

The website now seems willing to allow non-Americans to preorder the American lectionary set.

I'm sorry to say that this is only due to a bug on the website (thank you for reporting it Sad). As the product page indicates, we do not have permission to sell the Lectionary outside the United States. We are working on resolving the bug, but, unfortunately, we will be forced to cancel any orders from outside the United States made in the meantime, since our licenses forbid us from honoring them.

I realize that our problems with international licensing are great source of frustration for our users (most infamously, with the Catechism). Please believe me when I say that we share your frustration. (We really want to sell you the Catechism!)

The management of rights to ecclesiastical texts is often complicated, requiring navigation of a maze of different bodies, each usually having limited jurisdiction and authority (yay, subsidiarity) and limited resources (being non-profits) for handling new situations that weren't imagined when these systems were created in the world before digital publishing and the World Wide Web.

We are trying our best to work through that maze, building relationships with the various ecclesiastical bodies and rights-holders and hoping that things will get easier as the Church adjusts to the digital age. We really appreciate your patience.

Well, I did see last week that the Vatican is creating a new commission for Vatican Communications to help streamline all their various communications offices (including Libreria Editrice Vaticana among almost a dozen other media related offices).  Hopefully something will come out of that commission that will make your job easier!

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