Expiring Discounts & Still Only an Alpha?

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This post has 29 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 24
Kazooless | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 26 2010 10:49 AM

I am a Mac user. I have little use for the Windows version (occasionally I use it for PBB's, but version 4 doesn't have that yet either). I rely on my Mac Logos SW, and have no interest in trying to us an alpha version.

So, is Logos really saying that we must buy a product that isn't ready for prime time if we want to get the discount? That wasn't the requirement for Windows users, so are Mac users still being treated as second class citizens? 

Personally, I really don't want to spend the money on a product I can't use yet. Can we get an official Logos response to this question please?

Thank you,

Jeff Kazules

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 26 2010 11:50 AM

I can't give you the "official" response, but I can tell you what I know.

JeffKazules:
So, is Logos really saying that we must buy a product that isn't ready for prime time if we want to get the discount?
No, they are not saying you "have" to buy anything.  You are free to wait.  However, if you want the discounts you can purchase and use almost every resource included in the upgrade with one of the current software versions (L3 windows, L4 windows, L1.2.2 mac or L4 mac).  

JeffKazules:
That wasn't the requirement for Windows users, so are Mac users still being treated as second class citizens? 
I can't address your feelings nor can I influence how you choose to perceive the process..  I can only answer for myself.  I don't feel mistreated in any way or feel "second class".  Logos has some fist class developers on the job and are looking to hire more.  Personally, I like that Logos has included us in the Alpha / Beta process so we can give feedback on what we, as mac users, want.--that is also the same reason I participated in the L4win Beta process.  

Then again, I tend to be a "glass half full" personality and others with have a different perception based on their personality.

Blessings

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 10548
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 26 2010 5:52 PM

JeffKazules:
are Mac users still being treated as second class citizens? 

Probably no one complained longer or louder about Mac users being treated this way that I did in the past. However, this arose from a lack of knowledge as to the tremendous effort Logos was putting into the development of Logos for the Mac.

JeffKazules:
So, is Logos really saying that we must buy a product that isn't ready for prime time if we want to get the discount? That wasn't the requirement for Windows users

A lot of Windows users have made the same complaint. But, like Joe said, no one is being forced to purchase L4. If you want the best prices, buy early. If you want finished software, wait. It is your choice. Realistically, though there is no such thing as finished software. Someone is always working to improve a product, or it rapidly becomes obsolete.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 26 2010 9:21 PM

Concur with several forum posters about encouraging progress in Logos 4 Alpha releases for Mac OS X.

After purchasing discounted package upgrades for my wife and myself, know many resources can be used in Logos for Mac 1.2.2 while Logos 4 Alpha improvements continue.

Observation: A12 is first release that merits consideration for wife's iMac with case sensitive file system - know she would enjoy Biblical People tool.

Also looking forward to Apple's event later today - hearing rumors about tablet and iPhone OS upgrade.  Noted Logos 4 iPhone App now has offline reading capability.

Keep Smiling Smile

 

 

Posts 24
Kazooless | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 12:03 PM

QUOTE: No, they are not saying you "have" to buy anything. You are free to wait.

I think if you read my post more carefully, you can see that I am fully aware of that. They are not forcing Mac users to purchase, but they are giving them a choice that isn't all that pleasant:

Choose:

1. pay discounted price now and don't get finished product for unknown period of time

or

2. don't pay now, but pay non-discounted product when it eventually becomes available

 

I can tell you right now, if I pay now to get the discount and then they come out with a discount for Mac users when it arrives, I'm going to be angry. They should say something right now about their plans and stick to it. That's why I'm posting. I'd like an official Logos answer to this.

Also, Windows users weren't 'forced' to make this choice. They got what they paid for immediately upon payment.

 

Posts 18
Christopher Guest | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 12:29 PM

I agree with Jeff. If it were any other piece of software, by any other manufacturer, no-one in their right mind would purchase a partially completed product on the promise of a 25% discount.

As the deadline looms larger for the discount on Logos for Mac I was sorely tempted to buy - having taken into account the response of others to my question on whether they would make the same purchasing decision.

On balance, I've decided to wait for the 'golden master' version and pay the extra £40 ($64) for a properly supported product (Bible Study).

My Mac can go all the way to OS XI

www.bournvillechurch.co.uk

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 12:33 PM

JeffKazules:
I think if you read my post more carefully, you can see that I am fully aware of that.
Based on your word choice of "force" it was not clear to me you had a good understanding of the situation, so thanks for clarifying yourself.

JeffKazules:
They are not forcing Mac users to purchase, but they are giving them a choice that isn't all that pleasant:
Life is full of tough choices.. that is what I remind my kids about all the time. 

JeffKazules:
I can tell you right now, if I pay now to get the discount and then they come out with a discount for Mac users when it arrives, I'm going to be angry.
Thanks for sharing with everyone your preemptive choice to be angry.  If you feel anger is the righteous response to this set of circumstances, then that is something between you and God.  

JeffKazules:
They should say something right now about their plans and stick to it. That's why I'm posting. I'd like an official Logos answer to this.
I seriously doubt Logos will say anything now about what deals they will offer 6 months from now. Based on your comments, it is clear you have never run a business, otherwise you would know that a company cannot make a commitment to a sale price 6 months down the road because there are too many variables outside Logos' control. 

JeffKazules:
Also, Windows users weren't 'forced' to make this choice. They got what they paid for immediately upon payment.
I guess we are back to the point where you don't understand the meaning of the word "force".. oh well.  As stated before, you are getting what you pay for right away. You are paying for the books, not the Mac software itself.  And, as soon as you pay, You can use all the books you buy in Mac 1.2.2.  You can use most of them on the iPhone, you can use them at library.logos.com, you can use them on L4 in Parallels, or in the L4 Alpha.  The only exception are some of the tools native to L4.  If that is not a good deal for you, or just so "unpleasant" for you to suffer through, then don't buy it.   

Peace.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 27
Carlin Wong | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 1:12 PM

Hey Joe,

Where can you get the Mac 1.2.2 version?  I purchased the L4 package, is it possible for me to use that version for now?

Thanks,

Posts 5
Travis Roehm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 1:31 PM

I just purchased version 4 for my mac. I'm currently downloading the library as a matter of fact. So while this is my first post (I usually try to reserve my first post for something better on a forum) I have to say there's a real entitlement thing going on in this thread.

The simple facts are Logos owns a business and they can sell as they see fit. I'm glad that the new version is even offered for purchase with a discount. Most companies would offer the "finished" version for full price with a gala event and continue to work out the bugs. You can't really cry foul here. Buy it or don't. Your prerogative as a consumer is to purchase a product  not demand how the seller sells it.

Let me try another tact. If I choose to buy merchandise at a store and then it goes on sale the next day is it their fault I bought it at full price? Do I have the right to be angry at them? The grownup answer is "no."

Maybe there will be another sale when it's finished and maybe there won't. I can tell you that my decision to purchase is my own issue not their's. Anger as a response here is odd and childish.

 

Posts 24
Keith Savage | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 1:38 PM

I purchased L4 realizing that it was only in the alpha stages and that it would stink. I too don't particularly like running Windows but I felt that it was a must for this product right now. The Alpha's are progressing nicely, A12 actually has worked nicely. I purchased the product (and just upgraded again today to portfolio) based upon the promises of a reputable company. I admit, I would not have done this with a secular company. I am trusting that my Christian family will deliver and that they have given me now the best bang for the buck. 

 

Keith 

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 1:42 PM

Its kind of funny to see arguments on "christian" business's I think.  If the argument is that the business model is inadequate then there is often a shift to a sort of "well its a christian" endeavour play with love and charity.  If the argument goes the way of questioning the business model on christiand ground there appears to be a shift to "well this is a business and if you don't like it don't buy".  I wonder if there is such a thing as a christian business and exactly what that means when the whole business model seems to be an exercise in mass marketing geared to sell a customer/client/fellow christian to the next level of product and price point.  Where else in the business world, except Microsoft, is it a good deal to buy alpha/beta computer programs at a discount...I'm just wondering really.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 1:58 PM

Carlin Wong:
Where can you get the Mac 1.2.2 version?  I purchased the L4 package, is it possible for me to use that version for now?
The link in my signature which ends, "READ THIS FIRST" has the info you need. See item #8.

Blessings

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 5
Travis Roehm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 2:08 PM

Rene:

If Logos wasn't up front about this not being complete then it would be an issue. Microsoft is a great example.

If Logos weren't going to "upgrade" current purchasers of the beta to the full version without further investment then this would be an issue.

 

As they are up front and honest as to the state of completion and as my purchase entitles me to the full version when it is ready without any further "paid upgrade" I don't see how your statement applies.  If I'm missing your point please correct me. :)

Posts 24
Kazooless | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 3:24 PM

Joe Miller:
 

JeffKazules:
I can tell you right now, if I pay now to get the discount and then they come out with a discount for Mac users when it arrives, I'm going to be angry.
Thanks for sharing with everyone your preemptive choice to be angry.  If you feel anger is the righteous response to this set of circumstances, then that is something between you and God.  

Amazing how worked up people can get over a simple post inquiring about the company's business policy. I like how easy it is for people to say that others with any complaint at all have an attitude of "entitlement." Oh brother.

I'd be angry IF they did discount later because they've said this:

"Last Chance: Introductory Upgrade Pricing Expires This Week."

If they don't say anything more than that now, but later they do decide to discount it, then it wouldn't really have been a "last chance" and so a decision to purchase now would have been based on misleading marketing. That's all. That's seems reasonable to me. I don't expect Logos to do that at all, but they haven't always made the best business decisions in the past, so I asked.

The only reason I posted this question here was to hopefully get Logos' confirmation that this is definitely how it is, even if you're a Mac customer. Sometimes marketing isn't exactly specific, and sometimes Mac considerations or exceptions are not published on the front page and in bold. I asked the question, explained why I was asking, and waited for Logos to answer. That hasn't happened, but of course all the self-righteous "you should have my attitude" finger pointers felt the need to chime in instead.

 

Ask a simple question...

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 3:56 PM

JeffKazules:
Amazing how worked up people can get over a simple post inquiring about the company's business policy. I like how easy it is for people to say that others with any complaint at all have an attitude of "entitlement." Oh brother.

A person certainly has to have tough skin around here, don't let it bother you.  Keep posting!

Posts 41
MajorCedar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 3:59 PM

O gracious.  I more than sympathize/empathize with Mr. Jeff's frustrations.  I bought the L4 Mac version and am so DISAPPOINTED.  I've tried complaining, etc., but to no avail.  Right now, L4 is slow, bulky, not too-much operable and continues to fill up your hard drive with lots of gbyte updates.  If you want to save a buck or two and give the folks at LOGOS some more operating capital (IN HOPES THEY'LL GET CLOSER TO SOMETHING CALLED FINISHED) than follow the rest of us.  If not, than don't.  

In my judgment, to try to make light of everyone's frustrations is silly and unrealistic.  It is what it is.  As to why Logos has chosen to release a product in this fashion is beyond me!  Probably because BibleWorks or any other competitor does not offer the resources Logos does.  For if they did....  

Blessings!

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 4:10 PM

MajorCedar:
Right now, L4 is slow, bulky, not too-much operable
Major, did you figure out how to zoom in on an image yet using your Mac's touch pad?  I left a response, but have not heard back  http://community.logos.com/forums/p/9755/77222.aspx#77222

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 1364
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 4:37 PM

Actually, I think you misunderstand. You're not buying an unfinished product. You're buying complete books but the free reader isn't quite finished yet. Whether you buy the books now or later doesn't affect the reader.

There's a difference there.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 5
Travis Roehm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 5:01 PM

JeffKazules:

[quote/]

Amazing how worked up people can get over a simple post inquiring about the company's business policy. I like how easy it is for people to say that others with any complaint at all have an attitude of "entitlement." Oh brother.

I'd be angry IF they did discount later because they've said this:

 

"Last Chance: Introductory Upgrade Pricing Expires This Week."

 

If they don't say anything more than that now, but later they do decide to discount it, then it wouldn't really have been a "last chance" and so a decision to purchase now would have been based on misleading marketing. That's all. That's seems reasonable to me. I don't expect Logos to do that at all, but they haven't always made the best business decisions in the past, so I asked.

The only reason I posted this question here was to hopefully get Logos' confirmation that this is definitely how it is, even if you're a Mac customer. Sometimes marketing isn't exactly specific, and sometimes Mac considerations or exceptions are not published on the front page and in bold. I asked the question, explained why I was asking, and waited for Logos to answer. That hasn't happened, but of course all the self-righteous "you should have my attitude" finger pointers felt the need to chime in instead.

 

Ask a simple question...

1.) Believe me when I say I'm not worked up. Actually I haven't seen many posts that were all that emotional in this thread.

2.) That's certainly not how your posts have come across.

3.) If you're creation of a thread open to the public was truly just for the reason of getting a clarification of a companies advertising policy then you chose the wrong medium. An email or phone call to someone who actually worked at the company would be more appropriate. It's kind of like Matt. 18:15.

 

Posts 698
LogosEmployee

JeffKazules:
I asked the question, explained why I was asking, and waited for Logos to answer. That hasn't happened...

For the record, I write code. I have nothing to do with sales/marketing decisions. That said, this very topic was covered on the corporate blog today:

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/01/top_10_reasons_not_to_upgrade_to_logos_4.html

Reason #5, which I've quoted below, discusses this issue specifically:

Reason 5: The Mac version isn’t ready yet, so I’ll wait until it is.

 

True. The Mac version is still under development and isn’t ready just yet. However, Mac users might still want to go ahead and upgrade to Logos 4 now. Here are a few reasons: (1) You’ll get a better deal if you upgrade before the end of the month; and remember, you’re purchasing the books, not the engine. (2) You can use most of your new Logos 4 books in Logos for Mac 1.2.2 while you wait for version 4 to get finished. (3) Logos for Mac 1.2.2 and Logos 4 for Mac can run side by side without any problems so you can enjoy the stability of the old version while testing and enjoying the new features in the new version. (4) Logos 4 for Mac is being updated almost weekly with new features and bug fixes, and thoseupdates come to you automatically and at no additional cost.

 

Director of Engineering for Enterprise and Operations

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