Expiring Discounts & Still Only an Alpha?

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This post has 29 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 5:48 PM

These things have already said, but I needed to hear them again so I will say them again.

You don't buy the engine, which is what is in alpha and which is free. You buy the books, which are available immediately.

Here is my opinion though. I am sure you have preordered a program or item before, you pay for something you don't have. Why would anyone do this? Because they want a discount. If you want a discount on the books/resources, then buy now. If you don't want the discount then don't buy it.

That being said, I am still waiting for a call back about upgrading (HINT! WINK! HINT! WINK! HINT! WINK! HINT!). As an ambassador desiring to use credits I have banked, I have to go through different channels to buy Logos 4. 

I debated waiting, but waiting for what?

all about Christ,

all about Christ,

David Buckham




Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 8:30 PM

David Buckham:
You don't buy the engine, which is what is in alpha and which is free. You buy the books, which are available immediately.

This, or something like it, is stated often, but I don't agree, and I don't really think many people would agree if you give it some thought.

WE (you,me and everyone else)  buy Logos AT LEAST just as much for the program as the resources.  If a person just wanted some resources and didn't care about the engine, then they would go out and buy one of the many 2nd (and 3rd) rate programs out there. 

-Come on, we don't get the engine 'free'... people that worked on the engine didn't work for free....  We're paying for the program...  NOTHING in business is 'free' it HAS to get paid for one way or another. (Ex. Firecrackers... buy one get one free.... You don't REALLY think your getting one free do you?  I hope not, because your not... You simply paid for 2... its called a gimmick)

-your not going to convince me that people are not actually paying for the progam and only the resources.  I understand WHAT you are trying to say, but it doesn't match up with reality...

-Logos customers ARE paying for the program... just as we are the resources... and the light bills.... and the water/sewer/health-care/storage space/cell phones... etc. etc. etc....

-I apologize if I'm overreacting here, but I've heard this line of thought a number of times in these forums, and I can't imagine I'm the only one who sees this for what it is.  (If we got the program/engine for free then that means their developers work for free under a tree using coal to write with and borrowing some public computer in a library to write code)...

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 8:32 PM

Cameron Watters:
you’re purchasing the books, not the engine.

(see above)

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2010 9:26 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
-Come on, we don't get the engine 'free'

iPhone App FREE http://www.logos.com/iphone

Mac 1.2.2 FREE http://www.logos.com/products/details/4504

Web Browser access FREE http://library.logos.com/

Logos 4 Mac FREE http://www.logos.com/logos4mac

Logos 4 Windows FREE http://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/LDLS4Installer/Logos4Setup.exe

Variety of tools FREE http://www.logos.com/downloads

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
its called a gimmick
Actually Jeremiah, the marketing scheme is called a "Loss Leader"  You can easily educate yourself on the proper terminology using Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader (which is also free Wink ) In Logos' case, the base engine, as you suggest, does cost money to develop.  However, Logos is willing to risk that loss in the form of a free download with some free public domain books.  However, if users want access to the advanced features and better books, they pay.  It is a similar concept to many software programs that offer a FREE basic version and a "pro" version for some cost.  The FREE version does not cost money, but is treated as a Loss Leader to entice customers to buy the more advanced product.

You can also read this short post on Loss Leaders as it pertains to the publishing industry http://www.growyourwritingbusiness.com/?p=54

A "Gimmick", Jeremiah, is a different sales concept related to value of the item and its relevance to the actual product being sold.  You can start reading and expand your understanding on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick. An example of a gimmick might be when you get a free key chain for buying a car. The key chain does not offer any value to the actual item being purchased, but is given to generate interest or entice the customer.

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
I apologize if I'm overreacting here
No worries Jeremiah, everyone gets confused at times and sometimes confusion turns into an overreaction. Cool



My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 12:53 AM

I'm not arguing if Logos is or is not up front about their use of customers for their beta testing on the Mac platform.  What I am responding to is the ebb and flow of this, and several threads, that appears to handle product complaints with either be nice because were Christians or the love it or leave it approach because Logos is a business.   I do believe Travis that this model of beta testing is perfectly fine and has no ethical issues especially since discounts are being given for such voluntary service by customers.   However, I see nothing particularly Christian about such practices or even unusual in terms of the rest of the software industry.  As best as I can tell Logos is selling a product, with an excellent reputation, and should expect complaints when that product isn't up to customer expectation...without regard to ones spiritual state. 

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 6:37 AM


As a late night personality recently said, I hate cynicism, it's the worst possible attribute a person can have. 

I stand by the free engine and we pay for the resources. Here is my reasoning.

When I switched back to Mac as my primary machine a year ago, if I wanted to I could have gone with Accordance. It's a great program and it does many of the same features of Logos (some would argue better...at least compared to Logos Mac 1.2.2). Even MacSword is a powerful tool and it's free!  For me, I can't speak for you, it was a no brainer to go with Logos. They have more resources and more resources that interest me. I didn't buy Logos because it's Logos, I bought it because of the vast amount of resources they have. 

In my reality, which according to you is different than yours, I have bought books (physical books) that have included a "free" CD of the content and on that "free" cd is a "free" engine of Logos. These books, keep in mind, cost the same with or without the CD. You call it a gimmick. Maybe the problem is your understanding of the word free. 

To theologize this (can of worms maybe). Is grace free? Yes. Does received grace make you faithful? No. I hope that is not God's Divine gimmick to get us to live "good lives".

This is the Gospel According to Logos. 

Consider the Logos engine grace. It has been gifted and is free to us, not to Logos, it cost them.  What do you do with that engine now that you have it? You use it, you grow it, you share it.

I really don't have a problem saying the engine is free, and in my reality, I don't see how anyone could.

I don't think you are overreacting, I can't be the judge of that, especially not through a written medium...although you do use bold, capitals and underlines to make your points and some could say that is yelling or overreacting. 

all about Christ,


all about Christ,

David Buckham




Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 10:04 AM

I'm not going to convince you, your not going to convince me...  However, if I,you, and everyone else who has purchased a Logos product JUST was interested in buying resources we wouldn't be here discussing SOFTWARE instead we'd be reading BOUND books.


I don't buy one of the other Bible software programs because of their software... I buy Logos because of the software (just as everyone else does)...  The software (engine) is what sells Logos...  Otherwise, again, we'd be buying paper books (resources)...

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 10:11 AM

It's not cost productive to just buy bound books, and it saves space...

all about Christ,

David Buckham




Posts 24
Kazooless | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 11:57 AM

Okay, I just purchased my upgrade.

Thanks for all the input everybody.


Posts 89
Robin Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 1:39 PM

I realize that all the frustrations come down to money. Do our money worth an alpha program? Alternatively, do our money worth the additional books? By looking at all facets of Logos' business model, the core program is ultimately free. Whether it is an alpha or a gold release, it is free to all. We are actually purchasing books as our investment and also as part of how Logos makes money for its business to survive.

No doubt that the word "upgrade" is poorly deployed by Logos. We understand an "upgrade" as to "raise to a higher standard" or in computer term it refers to "replacement of a product with a new version of the same product" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade). For that reason, it is quite misleading as I could say. The term "upgrade" for Logos is actually "upgrading your library" as to your books.

If that is the case, it is a matter of personal decision, should we upgrade (aka purchasing books) our library? Without a doubt, the introductory offers provided us the opportunity to expand our library at a discounted price. Should we be mad if 6-month down the road Logos is offering yet another discounted offers? Bear in mind, it is yet another opportunity for us to expand our library and as well as a marketing strategy for Logos to stay alive in the business.

We need to be wise in this matter, as a financial steward, we need to ask questions, whether it is necessarily to "upgrade" our library. Are all our current books sufficient for our current study? Most importantly, are we going to use those additional books or just letting it to sit somewhere in the harddisk collecting dusts as to our books on our physical bookshelves

It is true that the introductory offers are a temptation to our eyes, but we need to reason the purpose why it is necessary to "upgrade" our library. Logos does not force us to upgrade, but advise us that the offer is ending soon, and that we don't miss out such opportunity. We may or may not see the such discounted price in the future. Again, be a wise steward of your money and reason why you do really need such "upgrade."


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