Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 4:56 PM

Jacob Hantla:
the larger the audience, I suspect the better the note-taking and mobile tools will become.

I don't think that necessarily follows. The larger the core audience becomes, the better that note-taking and mobile tools will become. We need "Logos" users to increase, not "Vyrso" users. This new group will fit into a new, but similar category. In other words, Logos will be making little to no money on these resources.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 4:57 PM

Super.Tramp:

Bruce Dunning:
Do you see this as black and white or do you see any grey in things?

50 shades of grey...............Devil  

i was not trying to imply in the least that this is an examp of grey. I was talking about this issue as a whole.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 5:05 PM
Francis:
I do believe that I have already answered your question through my other posts, but since you are asking me what I think of your answers, here it is.
Thank you Francis for taking time to specifically respond. I think you have made things clear. At least it is to me. I should say that our positions are not that far apart.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 5:26 PM

alabama24:

Jacob Hantla:
the larger the audience, I suspect the better the note-taking and mobile tools will become.

I don't think that necessarily follows. The larger the core audience becomes, the better that note-taking and mobile tools will become. We need "Logos" users to increase, not "Vyrso" users. This new group will fit into a new, but similar category. In other words, Logos will be making little to no money on these resources.

emphasis added

We need an expanded base of users that rely heavily on the fifth function of a library system as in the description of the Libronix DLS.

  • Sharing - sharing means having tools and processes for annotating resources, extracting from and citing sources, and collaborating with other users.

Targeting broader academic use of compatible resources will contribute to demand for better tools for sharing.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 5:53 PM

JAL:
Targeting broader academic use of compatible resources will contribute to demand for better tools for sharing.

I don't foresee the academic world "jumping aboard." Furthermore, having a "greater demand for better tools for sharing" doesn't mean anything... if there isn't a way to monetize it.

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David Achorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 6:25 PM

Should you offer every book?  Yes!

My question is what would you call the bundle?  The Mother Lode Bundle?  And would indexing be up to the task? Big Smile

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 6:52 PM

alabama24:
I don't foresee the academic world "jumping aboard."

Chicken/egg

alabama24:
if there isn't a way to monetize it.

Bob Pritchett:
As more and more schools adopt Logos Bible Software as an essential tool for their students, we're getting request for an even broader range of books in the system.

Produce Noet editions as the compliment to Logos editions.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 7:16 PM

JAL:
Chicken/egg

I just ordered both a chicken and an egg from Amazon. I'll let you know which one comes first.

JAL:
Produce Noet editions as the compliment to Logos editions.

I don't see students paying the Logos premium for ebooks when they could purchase the book much cheaper on Amazon.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 7:21 PM

alabama24:
Furthermore, having a "greater demand for better tools for sharing" doesn't mean anything... if there isn't a way to monetize it.

With proper/further development of Noet I can't see why it can't  be monetized.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Chad M. Foster | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 7:37 PM

alabama24:

I don't see students paying the Logos premium for ebooks when they could purchase the book much cheaper on Amazon.

if you convince people of the vslue early on they will. Before seminary I heard about Logos and purchased a base package. In my time at Asbury I have always purchased the Logos edition of a text if it was available. I have had to scrimp in other places and now have a Logos library worth more than my car but I understand the value that this offers for my ministry.   

I've also convinced dozens of others here at Asbury of the same thing. My only problem has been a fragmented research library when I am forced to buy a text from Amazon because Logos does not have it. I can quickly demonstrate to a student here how much time the software saves in doing exegesis and writing. Inevitably their next question is which package should I buy?

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 7:47 PM

alabama24:
I just ordered both a chicken and an egg from Amazon. I'll let you know which one comes first.

Big Smile

alabama24:
I don't see students paying the Logos premium for ebooks when they could purchase the book much cheaper on Amazon.

The choice may be mandated. In order to make use of tools required for class participation there may not be a choice.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 8:42 PM

"Robert Gundry’s now classic survey of the New Testament has been a mainstay for college and graduate courses around the world, having been used by thousands of professors and students."

This book is available as a Logos edition for US$ 39.99, OliveTree sells a version for US$ 38.99, and there is a Kindle version that is marketed as enhanced, including audio and video content, selling for US$ 38.99.

Price doesn't seem determinative as a predictor of student preference here. Yes, I realize a single example doesn't make a solid case.

___________________

Does anyone else remember Versaware/Versabooks. Versaware Technologies partnered with many major publishers but was a short-lived company (1997 - 2001). They raised US$ 40 million in venture funding according to one source. The platform, Versaware, was pretty good in its day. I thought they might outlast Logos Research Systems.

I still use the "Oxford Classical Dictionary" from OUP in Versaware.

This came to mind because I have to rebuild a Windows VM to support Versaware.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:11 PM

alabama24:
I don't see students paying the Logos premium for ebooks when they could purchase the book much cheaper on Amazon.

Depends on the needs and requirements of the student.

A lot of the Noet and Logos resources are in the public domain, and therefore incredibly cheap or even free on Kindle.

It's the integration you pay for.

When I was a student, I must have spent more than $1000 on Logos - and I didn't even need it for my degree, but for my Christian Union work. At that time, that was a massive expense for me. Several months' savings overall, but distributed over 4 years or so.

The Logos/Noet edition have some clear benefits compare to cheap paperback books or free Kindle editions, and I believe students would pay for them according to their personal budget and priorities.

Now it's up to FL to get the message across specifically to students (which I've not really seen happening since I first became their customer in 2001), and to give them some incentive to at least have a look at Logos (trial access, student discounts, free resources for students etc.)

Students have been quite neglected as a target group I believe. I found out about Logos (Libronix back then) through a special offer at Wesley Owen (something like 1000 resources for 30 pounds). Not specifically targeted at students at all. Though highly convincing about the integration concept, and at a very student-friendly price.

In fact, between 1999 and 2005, I never received anything about Logos through the "standard channels" aimed at Christian students in general (in Europe - it might have been different in the US...)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:12 PM

JAL:
The choice may be mandated. In order to make use of tools required for class participation there may not be a choice.

I don't see Harvard mandating Logos. If we are talking about seminaries, sure... but that isnt what we are talking about. We are talking about new markets. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:18 PM

Jan Krohn:

A lot of the Noet and Logos resources are in the public domain, and therefore incredibly cheap or even free on Kindle.

It's the integration you pay for.

I would love to have had Logos while I was a student... and I would likely have been willing to pay an extra amount... but again, I see the benefit in an integrated library. Religion and Seminary students may see the benefit as well... the problem I see is the new market. I don't see any significant group of (non religion/seminary) students willing to pay a premium for books. To the contrary, the cheaper the better. eBook rentals are growing rapidly. 

As for Noet... I don't know if I see any benefit in it at all. Is there something I am missing? If I needed those resources, why wouldn't I just grab a public domain copy and make it a personal book! Are there any real benefits to having a "Noet" edition? 

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:35 PM

Hi Bob,

it's very humble of you to ask.

i would encourage you to think and pray long and hard before taking that step.

I have seen your focus being to equip the church and a godly heart beneath that motivating it.

It seems you would end up marketing materials that go drastically against that virtuous goal.  

I can't see that ending well, just to be honest.

Praying for you as you look at this decision.

David Mitchell

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 11:13 PM

Thank you, everyone, for the feedback.

I think we've gotten as much value as we're going to get from the debate.

My summary:

I chose '50 Shades' as an example because it was the most objectionable title I could think of from a 'major' publisher (and, due to its recent massive cultural impact, probably an example everyone would understand the content of without having read it).

I'm sorry if that choice took the discussion off-track, though it does seem to have accomplished the purpose of staking out the extremes of the relevant issues.

I think I have the feedback we need to make the upcoming decisions.

My ruminations: (just thinking out loud... not part of the discussion)

I have a habit of overstating things because I hate disappointing people. If I want someone to take 10 minutes to help me move a couch, I'd ask for help and warn it could take an hour. I wrote a book that takes a matter-of-fact position on the important of firing people who aren't working out in their job. In reality, I still probably try too hard, for too long, to find a way to make things work before letting someone go.

I repeatedly remind people that we're running a business, not a ministry, but in reality service to the church motivates us daily and shapes all our long-term plans.

I try to set expectations such that I'll never disappoint people. Of course I constantly disappoint people, because people always bring their own expectations into the equation -- but I like to think that they'll never be able to point to a promise I made that I failed to deliver on.

I don't know that this is working for me, and I'm giving serious thought to changing my model. Because I thought I'd get judged for my actions -- which would always be better than people expected, and never worse than what I'd led people to believe. But in daily practice the judgement seems to be based on fantastical extrapolations from things I say and haven't even done yet (or ever). 

People who haven't read Fire Someone Today think I advocate -- and practice -- arbitrary firing of people. I haven't even licensed 'all the books in the world' yet and there's discussion of how we might be bringing photos from erotic books into the search results when pastors are doing sermon prep, and abandoning our core mission to take advantage of our much larger sales in non-biblical studies. Huh? Why would we ever do that? What in our 24 year history makes anyone think we'd allow that?

(I do appreciate the confidence in our platform, though! Even I don't believe we'll be beating the Kindle in the general book market... our strength is specifically in biblical studies...)

Well, I guess I know the answer: I said something scary, and people took the (quite sensible) position that if I'd say something as crazy as 'X', then 'Y' and 'Z' were probably right behind. Even if I till this point the worst I ever did was 'C'.

I've noticed that lots of other companies (and people) talk in less-scary terms, but don't always act the way they talk. But it seems to work better as a public relations strategy. Of course they take a huge amount of heat, too -- just after they disappoint. Not before, like I get it.

I'm still not sure which is better. :-)

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 12:40 AM

delete

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JC54 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 12:48 AM

Francis:
the possibility that you may have to sell something like 50 Shades of Grey, yes or no?

Well, the answer is "no". Fifty shades was among the worst things that a 'nomal' publisher published, so it was an example. But this would easily fall within the 10 percent margin, so never end up in Logos.

Bob, I truly and deeply appreciate your approach to things and your way of introducing them. It makes me feel respected as a costumer of this company, Thanks!

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:42 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I have a habit of overstating things because I hate disappointing people. If I want someone to take 10 minutes to help me move a couch, I'd ask for help and warn it could take an hour.

Interesting approach, but in this case it may have created needless anxiety among the Logos FL community Geeked

With this explanation, I can now say "Go for it"

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