Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 10:44 AM

BobbyTerhune:
I think we may need to be prepared to pay more for electronic books that are just being published, say within the last 4 years or so, and are currently on bookstore shelves.

Plus, in a model that bypasses retailers (who have to manage inventory), there is no pressure to reduce prices on slow sellers or overbought best-sellers and no competition between retailers. So the only discounts we get are the discounts Logos offers from time to time. We've yet to see any permanent price reductions on older resources in Logos, as far as I know.  I hope eventually the publishers will seek to maximize their electronic profits by matching price with demand, instead of just trying to protect the paper market, and then these high priced new releases will see a price reduction over time.

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David Lowther | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 10:54 AM

BobbyTerhune:
It seems that the new Zondervan and Baker model is to push out single title's for the higher dollar amount, than to take the royalty hit by allowing lower pricing in a collection and thus make considerably less money.

We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format. Will Zondervan and Baker Books sell to the public directly? Will the products show up being sold in stores and by third parties? Will we see discounted prices that indicate the margin between retail and wholesale pricing? I think we have to wait and see.

I am also not sure that we should assume the Logos pre pub prices (or future retail prices) are being strictly dictated by Zondervan or Baker Books. I suspect that Logos has some latitude in their pricing.

 

Posts 3095
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:27 AM

Terry Poperszky:
hate speech

 

"Hate speech" where?- why not just yell "racist"- your piety is showing- my comment was limited to the economic turmoil we are at the hands of the current admin and congress- and do not see a turn around for another year or so.

And it does have a direct connection to not being able to afford the "obvious" high prices of the Baker books.

Report it if you like- matters not either way.

End to responses

Posts 508
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:30 AM

David,

Both Zondervan with their Pradis product and Baker with their Lobronix product have sold to bookstores and other 3rd party online sellers. Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.

As far as what the pricing model is going to be, all I can go on is the current pricing model that we have before us in the prepub pages. Baker just got through putting out a number of collections that based on discounted retail paper prices were not that great of a price break either. For instance the Baker Theology Collection is worth 250.42 in discounted paper, the prepub price is 199.99 and after prepub is 279.95.

Don't get me wrong, I will most likely pay  the price for the resources I need and can use, but I am under no false ideas about the price I'm paying compared to what it cost in paper. Books in Logos format are worth more to me and I'm willing to pay more to get that value.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:31 AM

Ted Hans:

Dan DeVilder:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.

Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mineSmile.

Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you.  If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel.  Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all.  At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations!  Smile

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:32 AM

David Lowther:

BobbyTerhune:
It seems that the new Zondervan and Baker model is to push out single title's for the higher dollar amount, than to take the royalty hit by allowing lower pricing in a collection and thus make considerably less money.

We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format. Will Zondervan and Baker Books sell to the public directly? Will the products show up being sold in stores and by third parties? Will we see discounted prices that indicate the margin between retail and wholesale pricing? I think we have to wait and see.

I am also not sure that we should assume the Logos pre pub prices (or future retail prices) are being strictly dictated by Zondervan or Baker Books. I suspect that Logos has some latitude in their pricing.

We indeed need to wait and see how Zondervan and Baker will price their products after the release (especially if they decide to also market them through other channels).

I believe that both companies are testing the market and want to see how far they can push it (offering books only at the SRP, offering books in high demand only as part of an otherwise worthless collection only designed to sell books that would not be otherwise considered). I did not purchase Baker's collections then or pre-ordered Zondervan SRP offerings (not to mention the matter of Pradis conversion/upgrade that is still not resolved) and I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message.

Logos needs to be careful and not let the pre-pub system/concept become irrelevant (I don't know what role Logos is playing in the whole process but I doubt that they are the one setting the prices at SRP)

Not only Baker and Zondervan might frustrate Logos’ customer base that has been accustomed to getting deals through the pre-pub program and getting books cheaper than the print offerings, they could also damage the growth of the digital medium since frustrated customer are less likely to recommend their products to people in their circle of influence. The deals of the prepub system along with the convenience of the digital format were the two greatest arguments I used to “sell” Logos to potential customers.

Alain

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:39 AM

Bobby---thanks for some enlightening info

 

I DO feel a bit bad most of us are ragging about this.  Not that that isn't valid, but I also imagine there is a lot of hard work that went into getting those rights and most of us throw wetblankets on it without much positive to say (myself included.)

Has anyone here ever been in ministry, pulled off a tough assignment/sermon/whatever only to have some well intentioned dragons make their little critique spiel?

Anyway, again, our critique IS valid and needs to be said.  But I am self-reflecting that we are whining about price and all without really knowing much behind the scenes info, and without much acknowledgment that a threshold has been crossed with Baker, after much hard work!  Thanks team Logos!  I am personally glad to have Baker available to me with that wide a scope and a per-item availability!!!  Yes

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:46 AM

Alain Maashe:
The deals of the prepub system along with the convenience of the digital format were the two greatest arguments I used to “sell” Logos to potential customers.

 

I will say that i purchased WAY more from Baker (and others) BECAUSE of the pre-pub pricing than I normally would have.  And if given the option, I have bought Logos' version over the paper version consistently.

 

But I only have so many dollars.  If I am paying SRP no matter if it is pre-pub, or not, i will buy less often, and only when I need to.

 

I WONDER--what if Logos could strike a deal with IVP, getting their works for a cheaper deal.  Then, I see a certain Dictionary or Commentary is cheaper in IVP, i will buy their version, rather than the higher priced Baker and Z product.  If others did the same, that would create some competitive pricing reductions, perhaps.

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:49 AM

Alain Maashe:
I did not purchase Baker's collections then or pre-ordered Zondervan SRP offerings
Alain Maashe:
I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message.

Hi Alain,

               I trust you are well. I am not sure what you meant by "I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message." By buying, do you mean you will be sending them a positive message of your interest in their product or did you mean not buying, thereby sending a message?

Kind Regards,

Ted.

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Posts 320
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:51 AM

From my perspective it is not relevant in anyway the level of difficulty that went into making, copying, producing, or offering these products to the Logos community.   IMO this is a product being offered at a price by a business whom seeks to make a profit with or without a theological veneer of Jesus's love.  If one wants to purchase these prepub offerings that is fine, but to make excuses for what maybe framed as a form of price gouging is a different matter.  The product remains of high quality and worth pursuing by those whom have their needs met.  Yet there is, in my mind, a point where the theological veneer can be a mask for profiteering by any given company.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 11:56 AM

Ted,

I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you

I forgot the "NOT"  meaning not buying, thereby sending a message

I would indeed  be sending the wrong message by buying Big Smile

Alain

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:01 PM

Alain Maashe:

Ted,

I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you

I forgot the "NOT"  meaning not buying, thereby sending a message

I would indeed  be sending the wrong message by buying Big Smile

Alain

I am thankful for your little exchange, because I was a little lost in Alain's "logic" the first time around!!  Smile

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:03 PM

Dan DeVilder:

Ted Hans:

Dan DeVilder:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.

Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mineSmile.

Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you.  If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel.  Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all.  At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations!  Smile

Sorry, not again i got this one wrong! My apologies, I pressed the "replied" next to your name on your previous post(comments) and it took me to my post so i thought you were responding to me. No offense meant - just hope i was not out of line with my comments to you in a public forumSmile.

Yours in Christ,

Ted.

 

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Posts 37
David Lowther | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:05 PM

BobbyTerhune:
Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.

 

I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?

I am going to wait and see where we end up with pricing on Zondervan and Baker Books products. For now, I will keep Logos 3, Logos 4, and Pradis all installed and juggle as necessary.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:05 PM

ReneAtchley:
IMO this is a product being offered at a price by a business whom seeks to make a profit with or without a theological veneer of Jesus's love.  If one wants to purchase these prepub offerings that is fine, but to make excuses for what maybe framed as a form of price gouging is a different matter. 

 

Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem!  But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true?  (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub.  And I don't like that.  But I sure don't have more to go on, than that.  I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 508
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:09 PM

Dan,

I remember when Logos put out a CD with new books on it once or twice a year, Things have sure changed! I am really grateful for all the hard work that must have gone into getting Zondervan on board, and before that Continuum with all it's titles. I remember looking at commentary sets on my shelf and thinking, no way that will ever make it into Logos. But now we have every major commentary set available in Logos format, and for that I say a hearty thank you to Logos!

But I do believe higher prices while it does give us access to better books, also has the disadvantage of discouraging more books being developed because some titles that deserve publishing won't make the prepub cut because of price vs demand. Already there are over twenty prepubs that languish from 2007 & 2008. I think Logos tried to put hot sellers with titles that would never make the cut to get more books into Logos format and I think that has worked up to a point. After all how many 199.00 Baker collections can one afford, before it becomes cheaper in the end to just buy what you really need one at a time.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:10 PM

David Lowther:
We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format.

 

Baker has been one of Logos' publishing partners for years and if their pricing model is like it has been in the past their Logos retail packages will be heavily discounted. Their original collection can still be found on the internet for as low as $10, you can not even unlock ONE book in this collection by purchasing it directly from Logos. I personally have benifited from this price model as a consumer, but as Logos supporter I think this heavy of a discount is counterproductive to the long term viability of electronic publishing. So I can understand why Baker (probably with Logos' encouragement) has stopped dumping their Logos format books on the market. However, to be now listing books at full MSRP is going overboard in MOHO. Such a policy is just as counterproductive.

Zondervan, on the other hand, while they have never sold retail packages in Logos format has been in the electronic book publishing business for a long time. From their past record I think we can safely assume that their retail collections will be reasonably discounted. There should be some very attractive boxed products coming out in June.

With all this in mind, the people who are placing pre-orders at full MSRP are being played for the fool. Logos, Zondervan and Baker are taking no risk what so ever. Unless they can find enough people who are willing to purchase these books at 100% the book does not go into production and they lose nothing. The people who are placing these pre-orders however are taking all the risks. They are risking paying 100% for a product that very well may be heavily discounted in the future.

For my part I will take no risk with the money God has given me stewardship over. I am content to let other people pay out of the nose for these books and wait until they are a part of some Christmas special, some future Logos base product collection or a Zondervan or Baker retail product.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:11 PM

David Lowther:
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?

off hand I do not know where it is, but I also remember reading Dan's comments regarding Pradis users on this forum. 

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:17 PM

Alain Maashe:

Ted,

I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you

I forgot the "NOT"  meaning not buying, thereby sending a message

I would indeed  be sending the wrong message by buying Big Smile

Alain

Thanks Alain for the clarification.

I am doing well and currently reading a book by Robert R. Gonzales "Where Sin Abounds: The Spread of Sin and the Curse in Genesis with Special Focus on the Patriarchal Narratives" The whole Genesis creation debate about sin and death being present before the fall. Robert R. Gonzales takes the tradition line that the presence of sin/death was due to the fall. Very refreshing.

 

Ted

 

 

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 5 2010 12:23 PM

David Lowther:
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?

"What does this mean to you?
Don’t worry, the finished product is exactly what you would expect. There’s nothing different about the way the books are produced. They are still finished by our people right here in our building the same way all our other titles are produced. The difference is, they are Zondervan’s products, so they determine the configurations, collections and prices" http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/09/zondervan_announces_partnership_with_logos_bible_software.html

 

The info you wanted.

Ted

 

 

 

 

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