Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

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Posts 44
William Norman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 7:33 AM

I have to agree with David and Mark in their opposition to the new sales strategy.

It is  being implemented under a program that has historically been marketed as a means of providing  discounts on products for customers wiling to share in the financial risk of Logos publishing the resources

There are some who will bash me for my statement, but here goes:

In my opinion calling the Zondervan and Baker products Pre-Pubs could be looked upon as false advertising. I feel that Logos is allowing it's loyal customers to be taken advantage of by marketing them in this fashion.

I have purchased many Logos products in Pre-pub. I will not be purchasing any under the Zondervan Baker model.

I already have Zondervan in Pradis 6. If Zondervan insists on the current pricing structure with no discount to current owners I will not be re-purchasing something I already own.

Looks like Baker is using the same model. Some books look pretty good in Pre-pub. Most do not. To those of you who enjoy being price gouged enjoy yourself.                                                                      If I need it I will buy it. If not I will not

To those of you who would reply to this condemning me for not agreeing with the current direction of Logos "don't".  You'll only be giving me your opinion. As you can see, I have my own.

If you want to be taken advantage of go ahead and enjoy it. I won't be joining you.

I have purchased and enjoyed many of the benefits that Logos software provides. I appreciate the things that Bob and the company try to do for us "the customers". But keep in mind we "customers" pay for this software. It is not a gift. I hope to remain a "customer", but I don't agree with paying more for electronic  resources than I would pay for them in paper. 

 

 

Posts 3767
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 7:42 AM

David Paul:

Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.

One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.

Geesh David Paul, do you feel better now?  Your tirade totally obliterates any sense you bring to this discussion.  Gentleness of response would go a long, long way.  We are all guilty of not doing it, but you go wayyy overboard here.  We are called to be gentle, even with those who oppose us.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 7:50 AM

David J. Wilson:
Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route.  If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format.  Win-win ? Hardly..... 

 

Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us.  We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us.  No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer.  We value your resources and we value our own, as well.

Join us in this discussion, please.

 

Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond.  Time

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 187
Rev. D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 8:22 AM

Blair, thank you so much for asking the question. I looked at several of the Baker pre-pubs and instantly began to wonder about the price. Shortly thereafter, I saw your post in the forum which, based upon the discussion, even got Bob involved. Many of the posts, along with Bob's explanation, helped me to understand the pricing system a little more. Now that we have 24 inches of snow outside, and it's still snowing, I will have a lot of extra time to review all the conversation, as it relates to your initial question, in this thread. Your inquiry helped me a lot!

Be blessed, my brother!

Christina

iMac 27 inch, 3.1 GHz Core i5, 1T HD, 4 GB RAM

 

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 8:33 AM

Dan DeVilder:

David J. Wilson:
Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route.  If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format.  Win-win ? Hardly..... 

 

Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us.  We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us.  No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer.  We value your resources and we value our own, as well.

Join us in this discussion, please.

 

Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond.  Time

 

Very well said Dan! Zondervan and Baker need to know that this new type of "PrePub" feels like an threat or ultimatum to many of us: "You Logos customers pay the highest possible price and commit before hand to purchase our products or we will take our books and go home." My knee jerk response is "fine then, you take your books home and I will keep my money." This is a PR disaster in the making.

Posts 37
David Lowther | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 8:42 AM

David J. Wilson:

I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now.  If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced.  Then your only option will be a paper copy.  Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing. 

I am willing to assume that Zondervan and Baker Books are going to be involved in electronic publishing in one form or another and that if Logos is not a competitive option, they will eventually use some other format/delivery mechanism; maybe less powerful, but more affordable. I expect market forces will continue to play a part in the future of electronic books.

On a related note, I do not think that Zondervan and Baker Books are dictating to Logos how to present their offerings to Logos customers. Logos cannot reveal the terms and conditions they have with publishers, and it is possible that Logos is obligated to offer Zondervan and Baker Books products at SRP until after the products hit the market place, after 30 days, or something. Alternatively, it is possible that Logos has independently decided to offer the products at SRP until they know what path to take on pricing. I think it is highly unlikely that Logos was directed to list the new products in Pre-Pub. That was a Logos decision.

Context: I am a relatively new Logos user, but have used other Bible software for years. I am pleased with Logos 3, learning and excited about Logos 4 (love being able to get to my books with my iPhone), and I am looking forward to the future of electronic publishing and the power of digital books (though I am lover of bound books and the printed page). These forums are very useful, have great contributors, and it is great to see Bob and the Logos staff involved with the thoughts and opinions of their customers/users. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Anonymous | | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 9:01 AM

Dan DeVilder:

David Paul:

Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.

One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.

Geesh David Paul, do you feel better now?  Your tirade totally obliterates any sense you bring to this discussion.  Gentleness of response would go a long, long way.  We are all guilty of not doing it, but you go wayyy overboard here.  We are called to be gentle, even with those who oppose us.

It is true that we are called to be gentle with our oppressors but even our LORD was angered and threw a tantrum over how worshippers were being ripped off. Now it is the student's of HIs Word to whom Baker, Z (and even Logos to an extent) have become the money changers.

As much as I would love to add some Z & Baker to my meagre electronic collection, the $$ asked makes it way out of reach.

Posts 1404
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 9:34 AM

Sandy Turnbull:

It is true that we are called to be gentle with our oppressors but even our LORD was angered and threw a tantrum over how worshippers were being ripped off. Now it is the student's of HIs Word to whom Baker, Z (and even Logos to an extent) have become the money changers.

As much as I would love to add some Z & Baker to my meagre electronic collection, the $ asked makes it way out of reach.

We are not doing business in Church (as the money changers were) we are in an open market. B and Z are not ripping people off. They are charging retail value. They did not mark the retail up, but are charging fair price.(what the market deems fair) Those are new titles and are expected to be that price. Over time I am sure the price will go down. The problem is we see those titles in pre-pub and expected them to be discounted. We just need a separate sub-domain for (new titles that are new and not discounted). The reasoning for the pricing was not explain at first, but Bob took the time out of his busy schedule to explain the logic behind it (and invited all of us to give us our thoughts). I believe the answer is, create another category. Keep pre-pub for discounted material.  Most of us have expressed we will not support full priced books in a pre-pub fashion. As I stated before ( if a brand new hot off the press reference collection comes out, I will probably opt to purchase it at full price)if I really need the resource. I will not do so for leisure reading material...I will most likely in all honestly wait until the titles are offered at a discount rate.

Posts 1178
David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 9:57 AM

You are free to assume that both Zondervan and Baker will one day become heavily involved in eBooks in one form or another.

Myself, I see a parallel between Zondervan and IBM: thirty years back a world leader in Computer Industry, eventually pioneering the entry into the personal computer market, but ultimately unable to fully make the transition and today "missing" from the home computer market.....

Seems earily similar: Leading paper book publisher, pioneering via Pradis (but as a reluctant extra, similar to IBM's PC compared to their mainframe base), and with the current posture via Logos, perhaps ready to be bypassed by others. 

Perhaps forgetful that the objective is to take the works of a variety of authors and publish them to an appropriate market in a form prefered by the market, Zondervan seem perhaps overly bound by a concept of their own ownership and control of copyright and that the media must be primarily paper.  They may find themselves bypassed.  A decade from now Logos may find themselves, if they too can adapt fast enough, dealing more directly with the next generation of authors, ultimately by-passing those publishers who clung too long to paper and marketing via bookstores.   Even with mail order books and Amazon and the like pushing many local bookstores out of the marketplace, books are still inherintly heavy, cost a lot to ship (especially out of the country), and take up a lot of space when collected.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 10:23 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Everyone is trying to figure out pricing in the new world of digital content.

Bob,

The thing I don't like about your comments is that just when I feel justified in getting mad about something, you come along and deflate me. I really dislike the pricing of Logos books and don't like spending more for an electronic copy than for a book copy, but at least now I have some idea of why the pricing is what it is.

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 10:34 AM

Bah...I haven't even updated my interface to L4 because it seems like a waste of money to me....in 12 to 18 months it will be available at a severely discounted price.  I am still wondering why I need targums whatever those are from L3...another wasted interface.  My philosophy buy what I need when I need it for the project I'm working on.  Good selection of books in the library, way to expensive on nearly all the products above Scholar package, and several orphan interfaces will happen when the next great leap forward hits with L5  (Hal 2000 I suspect).   Nothing unethical as far as I can see....just another family company going the route of Microsoft...just hope a better cheaper product doesn't hit before Logos hog ties the multi platform e-book environment.  Talk about price increases then...lol.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 11:07 AM

P. Keith Larson:
Without a doubt we will have more front-line books available, but at the cost of all front-line books going up in price to 100% of MSRP. Below is a clipping for a very attractive front-line resource under the old pre-pub price structure. If this Baker experiment is successful, what motivation does IVP or any other publisher have to sell their books at less than 100% MSRP?

 

-Well said and great point Keith.  Undoubtedly if the Zondervan/Baker 'experiment' is successful we will see an increase of prices across the board...  Some may say 'we' (the majority) are complaining too much, but those complaints are going to help the rest...  I've spent thousands and have every right to complain.  (granted there is a right and wrong way to go about it)

 

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 11:12 AM

Blair Laird:

They are charging retail value. They did not mark the retail up, but are charging fair price.(what the market deems fair) Those are new titles and are expected to be that price.

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The jury is still out as to whether or not the market (in which us the customers are a major component) deems the price to be fair (many here do not agree with that assessment).

The argument according to which prices are MSRP because we are dealing with new titles that are expected to be that price is not valid

 Jesus according to Scripture has been out since 2002 (some of the research might be already dated) with a paperback edition having been issued for at least three years, however, the prepub price is still the full-retail price. Here it is clearly not a matter of new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.

The problem is not really the real value of those books (including costs that might be unknown to the buyer), the problem is the perceived value of the books and the fact that the perceived value is greatly influenced by the discounted price of the print edition and past pricing policies in the prepub system.

As some have mentioned, many new releases have been published through the old prepub system, it is hard to sell the necessity for a new system (whether or not it has real merits and is dictated by the cost structure). It is all about perception and the perception is not good.

Alain 

Posts 1949
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 11:30 AM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
Some may say 'we' (the majority) are complaining too much,

On my part I am not complaining.  I simply see a change at Logos in their philosophy and strategy.  It is just a fact.  It may be justified, and it may not be justified.  It is just a fact.  And I can no longer justify the amount of money I have invested in Logos.  When you buy hard copy books, you can share them with family and lend them to friends.  The digital world is not the same, I understand that.  But the stranglehold on not allowing family members to enjoy the library...I would rather have spent $6000 over the years on resources that can be shared than on those that cannot. 

I understand Logos' position; I respect it; it has saved me thousands as I have canceled many pre pubs. I was hoping Libronix would become the standard format for digital Bible resources.  Now I see it is not going to become a standard format, just an elite format, one that we all hope will last a long time, but one that will not be a model as adobe made pdf documents to be.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 11:34 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper;

I've probably been mislead but it has been propagated by major media that publishers now prepare their new books electronically first, then deliver that to the presses for paper based publication I know part of the Logos preparation includes tagging & other features not relative to the print media but it seems it should be a tad faster starting with digital source instead of "reverse conversion" back from paper books.

Bob Pritchett:
The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

I think it is great for seminary students to have digital versions of their academic titles. I am interested to see how long it takes before the paper book industry gets around to publishing works that originate in digital format only. I am so happy Logos published An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible (5 Vols.)  http://www.logos.com/products/details/3439 by Dr. Jim Rosscup. I imagine there are other great works that have been written yet remain unpublished. If these current top line resources could be highlighted separately from the sale prices in Pre-Pubs it would be easier to ponder their purchase. The shock of going from a $12 public domain tome to an $87 academic essay pamphlete is pretty stark sometimes.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 11:44 AM

Alain Maashe:
The problem is not really the real value of those books (including costs that might be unknown to the buyer), the problem is the perceived value of the books and the fact that the perceived value is greatly influenced by the discounted price of the print edition and past pricing policies in the prepub system.

I must say that this point hits the nail on the head.

If the last 20, or so, years have shown anything, they have shown that consumers will gravitate to the lowest pricing model. Even to the point of their own detriment. A great example is the "big box" retailers, while people kick and scream about the unfairness, they shop there to the point of putting their neighbor out of business, and making their own "down town" community a barren wasteland...

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1404
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:04 PM

Alain Maashe:
Here it is clearly not a matter of new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.

 

Why do you feel that you deserve a discount ? If you dont like the price (it is a free market) you can purchase it somewhere else at a cheaper rate. Neither Logos nor Baker owes me anything.I have seen a lot of people on this point with the (self entitlement attitude). I have paid for my books therefore I am owed the books I paid for. No one owes me anything beyond that. No one owes me a cheaper rate, but by me not purchasing their material they will get the point. I am with you. I believe digital resources should be cheaper seeing as there is a one time manufacturing fee (putting it in digital format). However no one owes me a discounted rate. As a business they have the right to charge whatever they want. They will not stay profitable if people refuse to pay their price.

 

 

Posts 1355
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:24 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

Edwin,

I agree that Bob and the Logos crew have done a great job in many areas, but they do make mistakes, and I have seen a few, but only a few if any posts that were out of line.

Before you start thinking I an crazy, I want to remind you that Bob has asked for his customers to tell him not only when he does what they like, but also when he does something they don't like.

I have spent years of my life coaching and training pro athletes, one of them has won 5 national pro championships.  In each case the athletes that do well are the ones that learn to work on their weaknesses not just on their strengths.  We often kid one another that the winner is the one that has lost the most and never gave up learning from losing.

You may not agree with me but I think these forums are some of the best feed back that Logos will ever get and if they want to build the best company and product, they will learn not only from the positive feed back but from the negative.

I am afraid that too many of us as believers see failure, or at least someone pointing out something they see as a flaw, as being bad.

That is seldom case in my experience, but rather our attitude towards such advice says more about us, than the fact that we are not perfect.

In my opinion, Bob most likely puts a high value on these disagreements, even if we are wrong, and he knows it, at least he knows how some of his customers see things.

In Christ,

Jim

Jim,

One of the things that has made Logos outstanding as a business is Bob's openness. I was amazed at how often he responded over the last 3 months since the release of L4. His posts have been timely, direct, informative and rational. His attitude towards Logos customers has always been to invite and value customer input.  Logos has been one the best businesses that I have known to quickly respond to their customers.

Customers have the right to their opinion and the right to express it. They should do it without questioning the integrity and character of Bob and Logos. Words have been used in this thread like "gouging" and "ripoff." They have been compared to the moneychangers in the Temple.  

People may disagree. But we need to learn to disagree agreeably. 

I'm sure there are fans who disagree with what you and your athletes do. The problem is that they do not know everything that you know about the situation. We are in a generation that thinks we know more than those who are actually doing the work. We all want to be Monday morning quarterbacks. 

Unlike most coaches (at least from their public statements), Bob does listen to his critics. Unlike many, Bob does not criticize his critics. He respectfully responds and just gives them the facts. He has always addressed and corrected any problem promptly. 

I'm just asking for Logos users to consider the facts and treat Bob and Logos as they would like to be treated when they have a different opinion.

Edwin

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:34 PM

David Paul:
If the publlishers he/she [sorry...but the initials leave me clueless] mentioned can't see the Logos marketplace as one of their best potential markets, they are blind.

Please do not insult my favorite publishers. Logos has not been one of their "best potential markets"; Logos is becoming a major potential market. with their expansion into LXX, Syriac, Coptic, Greek Patristics, lectionaries ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:38 PM

MarkSwaim:
Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication?  There is no incentive to pre ordering

It still appears that there must be sufficient interest to trigger the development of the resource. Therefor, I "bic (or commit to purchase)" items that are of importance to me. I'd call that incentive.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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