Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:03 AM

Rosie

I guess that sometimes I'm as stupid as that. I'll never call a Helpdesk again! Tongue Tied

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 11:31 AM

Dan DeVilder:
Not sure who that was directed at, nor what it exactly means.  (I am not being sarcastic or defensive, i really don't know.  Peace, Matthew!)

Hey Dan, Brother, I did a very lousy post at trying to finally agree with your points. Summarizing:

Pre-Pubs do not inherently mean deeply discounted.pricies. 

Baker is NOT overpriced at their suggested retail, IMHO.

I am happier to have the free choice to accept or reject a purchase in Logos format from any publisher than to not have that resource available at all.

I like having 45+ "Bibles". It makes me appreciate my favorites all the more.

I love having Portfolio Edition. It makes me appreciate BobP & Logos, especially in light of what other publishers charge per resource. (Thanks again Bob! Cool )

My only gripe with you Dan is How in the world did Tess quote your quote of my post & you get the nice compliment?? I wanna hijack some compliments like that! Devil

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 11:49 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Hey Dan, Brother, I did a very lousy post at trying to finally agree with your points. Summarizing:

Pre-Pubs do not inherently mean deeply discounted.pricies. 

Baker is NOT overpriced at their suggested retail, IMHO.

I am happier to have the free choice to accept or reject a purchase in Logos format from any publisher than to not have that resource available at all.

I like having 45+ "Bibles". It makes me appreciate my favorites all the more.

I love having Portfolio Edition. It makes me appreciate BobP & Logos, especially in light of what other publishers charge per resource. (Thanks again Bob! Cool )

i actually agree with just about all of this.  maybe from a different perspective than yours on certain items, but pretty much the same view!

 

Matthew C Jones:
My only gripe with you Dan is How in the world did Tess quote your quote of my post & you get the nice compliment?? I wanna hijack some compliments like that! Devil

 

yeah, lol, I saw that.  Maybe that was just his editorial decision in the particular "Message" he was transl--ahhh, writing.Geeked

 

 

 

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Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 12:09 PM

P. Keith Larson:

Bob,

Thank you for weighing in on this issue. Your insights are a great help to helping us understand the realities of the your business and I hope that our interactions are helpful to you in getting a pulse of where your customers are.

I am a bit surprised that your are surprised that your customers have the idea that PrePub means that the item is to be discounted. The old wording of the PrePub pages certainly suggested this and with just a few exceptions almost everything has been discounted.

Moreover, the way you price resources in your “download store” has conditioned us to not expect the resources there to 1) respond to completive pressure and 2) not reflect the realities of front-line vs. back-line prices. Let me give you an example.

Way back in Logos 1.8 days you started your first “publishing partner” relationships and one of your first was Baker. Baker released a number of Baker Byte products. At first these were just individual books. One of the very first resources I added to my library was the “Evangelical Commentary on the Bible.” I purchased it at a local Christian bookstore for the full MSRP which at the time seemed reasonable to me because it was still a fairly new book and at the time the only discount retailer I knew of that discounted Christian books was CBD.

Then Baker, decided to bundle a number of these resources together in their Level 1, 2 and 3 collections. While the cost of any of these collections at the time was more than the cost the individual books together they were such a good deal that I purchased Level 3 and still felt I came out ahead. I believe I spent something like $149 on it. In time, the normal retail pressure has been at work on these Baker collections and now a person can purchase one of these for $19.95 ($9.95 on sale) plus postage. I am still OK with this, I was an early adopter, and this is the price one has to pay for being an early adopter.

So what has happened in your unlock store? Well the Evangelical Commentary on the Bible is still selling for the full MSRP of $59.95! This is more than twice as much as the total collection is selling for! If a person was to unlock all the books on your web site that are on that $19.95 CD they would spend more than $500!

I take you at your word that you want to offer your customer the lowest prices possible, so the only conclusion I can draw from this is that there must be something in your agreement with your publishing partners that keeps you from competing with them in price. This BTW is why the majority of the anger is being directed towards your publishing partners, not Logos.

Moreover, your earlier front-line, back-line example does not hold true for your unlock store. Historical once one of your resources leaves PrePub it will remain forever at “front-line” prices. The Evangelical Commentary on the Bible is hardly a front-line product anymore, but it is still being priced as it was back in the day when I purchased my very first Baker Byte produce and had to install it with a 3.5 inch floppy.

I would be one of the biggest cheerleaders of this new deal with Baker if I knew that your resources would be priced like normal products were: Very expense for front-line products and discounted for back-line. This is the way I purchase other forms of digital media. I never purchase anything on new release Tuesday, but wait 6 months to 2 years until it can be found discounted. If this is the way things would work here I would be a happy camper.

However, from all I have historically seen from the way things work for Logos unlocks, Logos will be forced by your publishing partners to sell these very same books ten years from now for 100% of the MSRP. The PrePub for me was the one guaranteed opportunity I had to purchase Logos formatted resources at a discount. While some book might be discounted more heavily in a future by being included in a base product or in a “special” or in one of your partner’s box products, the PrePub was still the one shot guarantee of a discount. With this in mind, please understand our alarm when we see Logos book coming out of the gate at 100%.

I take you at your word that you truly believe that this “experiment” will not change the behavior of your other publishing partners. I ask you to please try to understand why many of us find this an unlikely scenario. If IVP sees, as one poster put it, “tons” of Baker books sold at 100% MSRP, I find it difficult to believe they would not want to be a part of the action and start demanding their “front-line” products to be sold for 100% MSRP.

Thanks Bob, for taking the time to be in dialog with us.

This is one of the most thoughtful posts in this thread.  I have to commend Keith for the reasonable tone.  He, in fact, has articulated how I, too, feel about pre-pubs and MSRPs.  I, too, would appreciate an explanation for why so many items remain at "front-line" prices, long after they were first published.  Mr. Pritchett, IIRC, suggested in another post that "fresh" titles must be sold at front-line prices, but -- again IIRC -- that later we could expect them to be sold for less.  (Or, at least, that's what he seemed to imply.)  I haven't seen a new Baker title yet that I will purchase.  But, if the price were to be lowered at some point in the future, I probably would pick up some of them.  IOW, none of them is a "must-have", IMO.  But they would have enough value to pick them up for the right price.  (Personal disclosure:  I am an L4 "fanboy."  I upgraded the day it was released -- and then again later.  It is first-rate, world-class Bible software.) 

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 12:47 PM

Rosie Perera:
If I'm understanding Bob's post correctly, the costs for supporting users once they buy the books add a continuing cost to the e-book that a paper book doesn't have. I don't know how that cost compares to the cost of printing a paper book. But I'm guessing it's higher. Bob said the cost of printing a book is pretty minimal compared to the cost of creating it in the first place.

I am glad that  now the atmosphere is now changing from pessimistic to optimistic thinking. In the western world some one may not understand it,but let me tell you from my back ground ,in our idiomatic ,''we say let's go where we can find water ,then we are going to discuss about it.Those who have used this language originally,I think they were in a place where there was scarce of water,for this reason they do'nt have to worry about it in that time. Some one has mentioned ,that money matters for him according to his income I am not against him, my comment was  based on the context of different people have commented about the price.No one knows about me only God knows,what I get ,or how I am,but I do not understand it instead of encouraging to Bob and his people ,to put them under pressure.Therefore God is using this man and his peole in a powerful way ,it is better not to waste teme to slow him down,instead it is better to pray and thank God for him and his people.As  I have said in our idiomatic language the man is not money centered man ,he will try any occasion to find a way to please his customers. IF I had money I would buy all the books with out arguing about the price.If I cannot buy 10 I buy 5 If not one,even if I do not have for one ,then I keep quite.

Dear Rosie, this comment is not directed to your comments ,I have started to write from your positive comments ,and suddenly my heart blew up.

Blessings in Christ.

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:01 PM

I think it is rather presumptuous to either deny or claim that a particular individual or company or product is being used by God in a business environment.  While one may speculate on motivations related to a given price, product, or policy such observations are little more than fodder for energetic thread exchanges.  Praying for individuals and companies is entirely appropriate within a Christian community but there is a problem (imo) equating a price point with revelatory information with God.  As if God cares how much Logos or Quickverse charges for a product within a profit making endeavor.  I would hope when God sees our world and the suffering here that there are more important issues than market factors for those with enough money to purchase rather expensive Christian software.

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:15 PM

Sandy Turnbull:
For some of us, unfortunately, money must matter

Dear Sansy ,I thank God for you ,and really appriciate you,my brother God is faithful ,he starts and he finishes,I trust the Lord for you ,he will take care of you, and hw will take care of your needs as well..Dear brother ,my comments was not directed  to people like you,but it was just over the context of those who were turgeting on the issue of putting under pressure to the owner of the company and for those who work diligently to make it easier for us to have access to read books in Lgosbe format.

God bless you brother.

Blessings in Christ.

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:27 PM

ReneAtchley:
I think it is rather presumptuous to either deny or claim that a particular individual or company or product is being used by God in a business environment.

Dear ReneAtchley,I would say,I think you have misread my opinion or you haven't understood me,I do'nt mean this Person or company is only used by God,but I believe God has invested on him the money and knowlege to use him as a tool for the benefit of the spreading of the Gospel massage .What I would say ,this man has done no pressure on  us,our money is with us ,we have our will, if we want we can buy if not ,we do'nt.

Blessings in Christ.

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:36 PM

If some one thinks he hasn't done wisely ,one can talk to him or write to him, Myself I am very grateful to have access to the truth of the word.I do'nt know Bob or his people personaly ,I have come from anther continent I am now also living in another continent ,but I know one thing ,where ever we are we are one in Christ.Amen

Blessings in Christ.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 3:23 PM

Tes:

If some one thinks he hasn't done wisely ,one can talk to him or write to him, Myself I am very grateful to have access to the truth of the word.I do'nt know Bob or his people personaly ,I have come from anther continent I am now also living in another continent ,but I know one thing ,where ever we are we are one in Christ.Amen

Amen, Tes, Amen!

After reading so many not ;pleasant ;posts on this topic, Frankly(!) - I appreciate this ;post of yours.  Thank you!

:Peace and Joy in the Lord!

Yours in Christ, .................           .   Mel

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 5:26 PM

Dan DeVilder:

Matthew C Jones:
My only gripe with you Dan is How in the world did Tess quote your quote of my post & you get the nice compliment?? I wanna hijack some compliments like that! Devil

 

Matthew,you get the nicest compliment from me.May God bless you! 

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 18078
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 6:12 PM

Maybe one little change would help people's perception of the Baker prices: Change the wording of "Pre-Pub Special" to "Pre-Pub Price" when the price of pre-pub is the same as the SRP. Special implies a discount. If there's no discount, it shouldn't be called a Special.

The way it looks now, though it isn't intended to be deceptive, it could come across that way, or at the very least confusing or a typo. My very first post on this thread -- the 2nd post back on page 1 -- was a naive one because I hadn't heard the whole kerfuffle about the Baker pre-pub prices yet.

Posts 456
Pastor Roger | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 8:11 PM

Rosie Perera:

Maybe one little change would help people's perception of the Baker prices: Change the wording of "Pre-Pub Special" to "Pre-Pub Price" when the price of pre-pub is the same as the SRP. Special implies a discount. If there's no discount, it shouldn't be called a Special.

The way it looks now, though it isn't intended to be deceptive, it could come across that way, or at the very least confusing or a typo. My very first post on this thread -- the 2nd post back on page 1 -- was a naive one because I hadn't heard the whole kerfuffle about the Baker pre-pub prices yet.

Yes.  This is really the bottom line.  Rosie, you posted this at 6:12 PM on February 10.  Logos, if you are smart, you will change this wording first thing Thursday morning, February 11th, 2010.  This is what makes a company look like they don't know what they are doing.  You can't call something a special when it's the same price as the suggested retail.  

 

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

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Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 7:00 AM

rfresno:

Rosie Perera:

Maybe one little change would help people's perception of the Baker prices: Change the wording of "Pre-Pub Special" to "Pre-Pub Price" when the price of pre-pub is the same as the SRP. Special implies a discount. If there's no discount, it shouldn't be called a Special.

The way it looks now, though it isn't intended to be deceptive, it could come across that way, or at the very least confusing or a typo. My very first post on this thread -- the 2nd post back on page 1 -- was a naive one because I hadn't heard the whole kerfuffle about the Baker pre-pub prices yet.

Yes.  This is really the bottom line.  Rosie, you posted this at 6:12 PM on February 10.  Logos, if you are smart, you will change this wording first thing Thursday morning, February 11th, 2010.  This is what makes a company look like they don't know what they are doing.  You can't call something a special when it's the same price as the suggested retail.  

 

 

More than that, the bottom line is that Logos has only themselves to blame for this firestorm. As much as Bob and others would like think PrePub never was intended to mean "discount only," both the wording of the original description and this "special" wording implies that PrePubs are more than just an opportunity to order book pre-publication, but pre-publication at a discount.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 7:47 AM

Rosie Perera:
Maybe one little change would help people's perception of the Baker prices: Change the wording of "Pre-Pub Special" to "Pre-Pub Price"

Just took a quick (disappointing) visit to the pre-pub page, and I'd have to say I'm in agreement with Rosie here...  While the wording of the pre-pub program has been changed a bit (thank you), "special" implies something other than SRP....

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 10:52 PM

Rosie Perera:
If I'm understanding Bob's post correctly, the costs for supporting users once they buy the books add a continuing cost to the e-book that a paper book doesn't have. I don't know how that cost compares to the cost of printing a paper book. But I'm guessing it's higher. Bob said the cost of printing a book is pretty minimal compared to the cost of creating it in the first place. And once a person owns a paper book, he knows how to use it.

Our cost to prepare a book for "electronic printing" is very similar to the cost to typeset a book for paper printing. We use the same round-number as many publishers for "per page" costs. (Kindle and ePub books would be slightly cheaper, having less tagging, linking, etc.) But we sell a tenth or fewer digital copies as sell in print. (Growing, but still far behind paper.)

The paper book then costs $1-4 per unit to print, depending on size, quantity, and the paper price at the moment. (It's like lobster on the menu -- changing daily with the market.)

On DVD's we pay up to $0.50; downloads might be just a few pennies, though you might download the book from us several times over the years.

But, with the paper book, the publisher A) doesn't have to re-invent the printing press every few years, and B) never gets a call for technical support.

In comparison,

A) We re-write the software platform every few years. Logos 4 was built on our previous knowledge and experience -- and some of the code -- and still took 3.5 years with a team that went over 25 people, just on the codebase. 

B) It costs us roughly $12 to answer the phone. (WA state minimum wage is nearly $9/hour, we pay more than minimum wage, we pay for phone lines, computers, desks, floorspace, parking, healthcare, supervisors, vacation time, downtime between calls, have calls that can go 20+ minutes, etc.)

(I'm not complaining -- feel free to call! -- but just making the point about how, at least for Logos, the lack of paper doesn't mean a "unit" costs less to produce and support. But now you can guess why there is no complicated "wall of checkboxes" in our setup program, and fewer customizable settings -- which generate more confusion and more phone calls -- in Logos 4!)

Posts 1342
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 11:37 PM

Bob,

Thanks again for sharing the facts of e-publishing.

You're the one that has to deal with the realities of those costs every day.

It is easy for customers to overlook those costs.

Posts 2716
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 13 2010 4:39 AM

Bob,

Thank you very much,God bless you,now you have made it vey clear ,so that no one judges a book by its cover.

Blessings in Christ.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 13 2010 5:08 AM

Tes:

Bob,

Thank you very much,God bless you,now you have made it vey clear ,so that no one judges a book by its cover.

. . . or by its publisher

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Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 13 2010 6:42 AM

Dan DeVilder:
or by its publisher

Thank you Dan.

Ich danke dir Dan.

Blessings in Christ.

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