Selling Logos 4 in Bookstores?

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 3:27 AM

Kevin Becker:

In the seminary I attended the main exegesis profs, the ones who teach OT and NT, Hebrew and Greek use the "other program." In fact one of them does training seminars for that program. So my impression is that to get students of this seminary you will need to get Logos in front of them in a real way, otherwise they will only see the value in the way their professors are doing things and then invest their money that way. I know there are many who can run both Logos and other programs beneficially but in seminary they are less likely because of not wanting to buy resources in multiple formats.

I once offered one of those profs to show any interested seminary students Logos and he expressed his doubts that any students would want to because no exegesis profs use it.

None of the exegesis profs at my seminary used Logos either. I'm not sure most of them were using Bible study software at all, but the one who I know was is a big Mac evangelist and got several of the other faculty members to switch to Macs. He used a certain other program which was the only thing going on the Mac at the time, but he was willing to sit down one day with me and a Logos sales rep who visited, to see a demo of Logos. At the time he wasn't suitably impressed to see it ever making inroads for serious exegetical use, but he was glad for the demo, as he had not been aware of Logos's capabilities at all prior to that. I suspect that Logos is strong enough now to go head-to-head with "that other program." But it still needs to do a lot to overcome the reputation it has among exegesis profs and users of "that other program" as being a lightweight Biblical languages product, mostly a digital library. And if there is still something it doesn't do well that "that other product" can do, it needs to remedy that situation, and then go after the exegesis profs as customers. Once they win them over, all the seminary students will come tumbling after, and they're the future pastors, who will recommend Logos to their congregations.... You see? The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 3:31 AM

Rosie Perera:
The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

I agree.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 4:04 AM

I haven't been to seminary but Lord willing, one day I will...

But....

The analogy to guitars is the same (I used to play guitar)

One of the reigning Kings of the Electric Guitar world is Gibson guitars and their flagship model is the Les Paul.

There are other makers who blow the doors of them in quality and value...BUT....

The stigma associated with the "secondary brands" lives on...you buy what is a much better guitar in quality and price, but spend your whole playing career saying...."....no...it's not a genuine Gibson Les Paul, but it's so much better...."

This is Logos' position...they must overcome the stigma of public opinion that (the other program) is "...the only program to use for serious exegesis of the text..." (to quote a current radio commercial)

that's a tough thing and in my mind, it only gets conquered through time and spreading the word by demonstration...the more Logos gets into the hands of those profs..the more chance they have of making inroads and ..showing people that things have changed.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 4:30 AM

One thing everyone is forgetting. The developing world is where christianity is spreading. We are now sending missionaries to Europe and North America to evangelize. This market is not being tapped into as it should.

Put the software on disks, have posters with the web address, give out demo cds, encourage people to copy and distribute them, with videos, and links to purchase the product. Many people who go into brick and mortar buildings to purchase products will see the disks, posters etc., and become familiar that Logos even exists.

Get ambassadors from several denominations, to market the product after being throughly trained. In the Bahamas, we have been hosting Morris to train persons about the software, for several years and the word does not seem to have gotten out past our denominations. Only a few persons who are not Seventh-day Adventists ever come. Many people go to Bookstores and purchase books.

Let potential customers who usepurchase via the web, have a box for the purchaser to give an account number or email address of the person who referred them, so that, that individual gets the credit.

In the help dialogue box on the softare, not only should it say "tell a friend" but rather "Tell a Friend:Get a Free Book". Make athe refer a friend prominent on the home page, with the option to turn it off, so that people will be more aware of it.

There are many "Christians" within the Bahamas, computers galore and internet a plenty. Most people do not have bandwidth caps, and this applies to 90% of the population, spread out over four islands.

We have other hard currency areas such as Cayman, Turks and Caicos, Bermuda, Puerto Rico among others. These areas are untouched.

Give serious attention to expanding the market beyond North America. That is my two cents worth.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 134
Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 4:45 AM

Just for another perspective:

I am a lay person--just interested in Bible study and can't afford all the paper books.  I'm a widowed, working, homeschooling mom.

I bought my first Logos product as eBible, upgraded to L3, and now have L4 Bible Study library.  Although I drool for higher libraries, I really do not need any original language stuff because it would be useless to me.  If eBible had not been available, I would have gone to another product to find something that was within my price range at the time.  I have given eBible as a gift often, and at least one of those who received the gift is saving up to invest in L4 at a basic level.

At one point, I received an email that marketed eBible for very cheap.  That's when I bought several for gifts.  So that might be an angle to look into.  After purchasing eBible and falling in love, I then added the McArthur library and the Grudem Systematic Theology to it, one as a personal purchase, the other as a gift.

Mostly I use my L4 for personal bible study and as a Sunday School teacher.

If Logos is interested in the homeschooling community, something like eBible is a GREAT way to do it:  low initial investment, good study tools, but just not quite enough--an incentive to upgrading (it looks like eBible is still available through Nelson)!  Most homeschool families have a curriculum budget, and so would have maybe $100 to put down on a basic package.  Market it through homeschool conventions, give a modicum of training to people like me, who are already homeschool parents and do it through seminars and booth sales, and also through the discount curriculum distributors.  You will hit a lot of families who are already in the ministry and many who are like me; just love Bible study, teach Sunday School, and would love to be able to do so in a deeper way.  You will also hit a lot of growing children who will be ministers, pastors and missionaries soon, and those who aren't will be serving in our churches.

I would be a willing guinea pig to taking L4 into homeschool conventions as a trained demonstrator...

Esther

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 6:01 AM

While the argument for pulling out has been well explained (I still disagree) I for one would have never of heard of Logos and would have never become a Logos user without seeing and buying it in a Christian book-store. 

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 6:12 AM

Rosie Perera:

Kevin Becker:

In the seminary I attended the main exegesis profs, the ones who teach OT and NT, Hebrew and Greek use the "other program." In fact one of them does training seminars for that program. So my impression is that to get students of this seminary you will need to get Logos in front of them in a real way, otherwise they will only see the value in the way their professors are doing things and then invest their money that way. I know there are many who can run both Logos and other programs beneficially but in seminary they are less likely because of not wanting to buy resources in multiple formats.

I once offered one of those profs to show any interested seminary students Logos and he expressed his doubts that any students would want to because no exegesis profs use it.

 None of the exegesis profs at my seminary used Logos either. .............The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

I guess the school I attended is an exception. I first heard about Logos while in Bible College while taking Greek (Logos 2 was the current version). Several professors and fellow students had it but I was on a very tight budget and couldn't afford it.. When I entered seminary, my Hebrew classes required the Logos software, and there was a very hefty student discount offered for a limited time at the start of the semester so I bought it. I've never regreted it. I love demonstrating it to people who have never heard of it.

The school is a very big supporter and user of Logos. They have had Morris Proctor Seminars at the school several times to give training. I don't think they are even aware that "the other program" exists.

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 11:02 AM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
I for one would have never of heard of Logos and would have never become a Logos user without seeing and buying it in a Christian book-store. 

ditto Smile

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
Dell Insp 17-5748, i5, 1.7 GHz, 8G RAM, win 8.1

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 11:35 AM

Argument from pragmatism...we all have these feelings over things "...all I know is that I've had a sony VCR and it's never given me trouble so Sony is a reliable brand...."

But that's not the situation here....only Logos knows the significance of (or lack of) of CBS sales, and I'm sure that they made a business move based on hard evidence that made sense to them...

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1681
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 11:38 AM

Me too!!!

eBible was the first Bible software that I ever bought. If it had not been in a bookstore, I probably would not be using it today. Over the years, I  have upgraded to Scholar's.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 2:40 PM

My first Bible software was a competitors brand (no, not the "other" one but another one) I bought at a CBS in the mid 90's. It was few days later that I first learned about Logos, from reading a software comparison review in a Christian magazine. I then went to a different CBS to buy Logos (the first store didn't carry it) - I paid list price (I think $500) for Logos 2.0 Level 3. I found out a few days later I could have saved over $100 if I had bought it on-line. Seemed like all CBS's were charging higher (list) prices than on-line venues for Bible software at that time, so I stopped using them for Logos compatible software (except for entry level eBible packages at around $25 I gave as gifts).

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

Posts 1178
David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 4:16 PM

While I agree on better marketting to seminary students, these also needs to better marketting to Christians looking for entry level software packages (whether they are new to Christianity or new to software).  Logos misses out here as there is currently a need for someone with Logos to undo the marketting done by others and show the new entrant why they have bought the wrong software.  It is a lot different from a few months ago when you could search enywhere on line and find Logos products among those offered by online stores - now search for "software" at an online Christian bookstore and you pull up everything EXCEPT logos products.

The current Logos base products are too expensive for entry level starters, as entry level people are really only trying to "test the waters" before going in.  The risk is that now they willl most often enter different waters.

There are inexpensive Logos entry level packages out there, but again they are low profile and difficult to find unless you already know they exist.  The new Nelson eBible products for one, including potentially some of the more specialized entry level collections listed on the logos site:

http://www.logos.com/products/details/5848     http://www.logos.com/products/details/5833

But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Not much in content scope but a way for a new user to learn the ropes and  grow to want more....

Nelson even did a free entry level package a few years ago to get people started with a few key resources - all in Logos 3 of course.

But just imagine the cost to Logos of phone support for all these new users who need help getting up and running..... would have to be a massive loss leader....   as long as the rest of us were willing to pay higher prices for our new pre-pub resources, it MIGHT work.... but so far it has not worked, hence the pull back.

Selling software in Bookstores is not something that has seemed to work well in general.  Of course there will be a few exceptions who have been introduced that way.  Essentially it has been marketting to the wrong audience.  Most bookstore browsers are not into computers that much, and bookstore owners cannot (or do not) help them much when they run into difficulties.  More people seeking Bible software shop for it on-line.  Unfortunately many do so via on-line book sellers and Logos is not there anymore, just the competition.

In the three (physical not virtual) Christian Bookstores in our city, all have a small amount of software, all very old stock (eight to ten years old) except for GLO which all have, and seems they are destined to keep, as it is an expensive black box to all except one store who has a demo (but on an old computer that can hardly handle it).

Does need a rethink - physical Christian Bookstores are not good at marketting software of any kind - virtual Christian Bookstores have software but now it is almost ALL the competition.  The Logos site has a good profile but starts at a level many thing too expensive for an "entry level" they want to try.   That leaves only word of mouth from existing users ?   Well that can work for a small and specialized audience for a while.......

Suggest there be a new, free TRIAL Logos 4 package to download (not until the current support waves for Logos 4 are over though !!! )  with enough titles to make it interesting, where all except a few basic public domain titles expire after say three months (it takes that long to get up the learning curve unless you have enough time to put a major focus on learning just the new software).  Couple that with better marketting to this group of new users of perhaps a few less expensive entry level packages would tend to get more users started on their collections......

 

Posts 120
Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 5:42 PM

Floyd Johnson:

I would be interested in how many here got their first Logos product from a Christian Book Store - local or seminary?  I know I did - after receiving a substantial Christmas gift from the church I was pastoring.

Blessings,

Floyd

 

I bought Logos 2.0 at a discount Christian Bookstore.  Along with several of the eBible collections.  Especially the Author's LifeWorks Collections because it was much more economial than buying print books.

Also I gave away to a church I pastored for several years, 10 boxes of the eBible collections which had Bible Dictionaries, Concordances, and several versions of the Bible for $19.99 which was much cheaper than the print books.  Bible studies with these people became a pleasure because they could do homework for the classes much easier and were excited to learn how to study the Bible for themselves!

Keep the low priced base packages and sell them in the Christian Bookstores.  But educate the persons who sell these products.

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 6:08 PM

David J. Wilson:

...better marketting to Christians looking for entry level software packages (whether they are new to Christianity or new to software).

...now search for "software" at an online Christian bookstore and you pull up everything EXCEPT logos products.

There are inexpensive Logos entry level packages out there, but again they are low profile and difficult to find unless you already know they exist.  The new Nelson eBible products for one, including potentially some of the more specialized entry level collections listed on the logos site:

http://www.logos.com/products/details/5848     http://www.logos.com/products/details/5833

But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Suggest there be a new, free TRIAL Logos 4 package to download (not until the current support waves for Logos 4 are over though !!! )  with enough titles to make it interesting, where all except a few basic public domain titles expire after say three months (it takes that long to get up the learning curve unless you have enough time to put a major focus on learning just the new software).  Couple that with better marketting to this group of new users of perhaps a few less expensive entry level packages would tend to get more users started on their collections...... 

Excellent observations and suggestions, David!

Posts 3672
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 6:12 PM

David J. Wilson:
But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Okay - you convinced me. I placed my order.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 7:09 PM

I think there's a strong case to be made for: (1) Creating a very inexpensive (maybe even free to download) collection of resources, and (2) getting that collection in every Wal-Mart, Target, and Barnes & Noble.

I first encountered Logos as a college student, when I picked up what was essentially a 2.x starter package I found at a mainstream (i.e., non-Christian) store. I imagine it was an eBible package. It didn't have a whole lot of resources - the usual Matthew Henry's, KJV, Strong's, etc. - but it was enough to get me hooked. Before long, I had unlocked one or two commentaries, and a Bible or two. I was using the Strong's numbers to look into the original language - a tool I never even knew existed until Logos made it accessible to me. And by the time I entered seminary and discovered that they used it there, too, I was willing to invest some serious money in my Logos library.

I've since purchased thousands of dollars' worth of Logos software and resources, and have convinced family and colleagues that it's worth their investment, too.

But that's a lot harder than it needs to be when the barrier to entry is $150. Very few people are serious enough about Bible study to spend that kind of money on Bible software, and certainly not sight unseen.

I understand that a minimal package like I purchased doesn't really give the whole "Logos experience," but I don't think it needs to. All it has to do is give Christians a useful tool that broadens their concept of studying the Bible and whets their whistle for more. It's a gateway drug, really. Wink

What if Wal-Mart's $10 software selection included a Logos starter set? What if Logos fans could direct their family and friends to a free download of L4 and a few basic resources? (Yes, they could get the free eBible demo in L3 and then download the new L4 engine, but that's a lot of work - I'm talking a one-click install here.)

The iPhone app is a great example of this sort of marketing, and I think it's going to be very successful, both in its own right and as a tool for bringing new people to Logos Bible Software. But there's a whole population of potential users out there who are never going to use Logos right now, either because they'll never encounter it, or because $150 is a lot to spend on an application for most people.

I don't know what sort of costs are involved in getting a jewel-cased CD into mainstream stores. I don't know what sort of issues there might be with creating a cheap/free downloadable starter kit. All I know is Logos' current pricing/marketing (with the exception of the iPhone app) makes it very unlikely that they're going to catch Christians outside of the clerical/academic folds. And that would be a real shame!

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 7:50 PM

Bob Schaefer:
I think there's a strong case to be made for: (1) Creating a very inexpensive (maybe even free to download) collection of resources, and (2) getting that collection in every Wal-Mart, Target, and Barnes & Noble.

Unless Logos went to a fee-based support system, installation issues alone for such an offering would swamp Logos Tech Support.

Second, people will then balk at spending real money after getting something for free/almost for free.

Bob Schaefer:
I understand that a minimal package like I purchased doesn't really give the whole "Logos experience," but I don't think it needs to.

This where I have to disagree. Logos cannot be appreciated with a small library of public domain works. People will leave unimpressed and will not spend more. I have complained many times that to appeal to lay persons (small group leaders, Sunday School teachers, active Bible studiers) that Logos needed a good multi-volume commentary set that covers the whole Bible, is high quality, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. JF&B and Matthew Henry don't cut it (don't stone me!).

Guess what? Logos has that right now for the first time. The Tyndale Commentary. If Logos tries anything new, I'd wrap that puppy up with a couple of interlinear Bibles, a half-way decent Bible dictionary (like Erdmans' more expensive one), their maps, timelines, Nave's Topical Bible, and the visual data from L4 and sell it for no more than $199. Not many resources but something solid.

Then I'd offer some upgrade bundles: say four-five more modern Bibles in one, two-three single or two-volume commentaries in another, a Backgrounds, manners, and customs bundle, a prayer bundle, a doctrines bundle (a couple of flavors, please), etc. to entice additions in logical progressions to go further in Bible study. Then promote some of the bundles that lay persons might already be interested in: MacArthur, Wiersbe, Jeremiah (add your own). Get them started with quality and offer not single resources but chosen bundles of resources to move up to the next level. Use the Home Page to target those with this intro bundle and offer occasional special discounts on a package for 24 hours or a few days (like Amazon's lightning deals, but a little longer).

A significant problem with small sets of resources is that they don't show off Logos' strength: the ability to own and use a vast library of resources for Bible study. I don't think they are effective show-pieces. I also don't think loading something up with fluff benefits Logos. People will go back for seconds of good food, not warmed over left-overs from another era.

Enough said.

This conversation will go on, but Logos has made up its mind. I don't think we are going to change it. On to another, more fruitful issue, I say.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 269
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 8:31 PM

Robert Pavich:
The "attrition" was very high (software that mysteriously disappeared and therefore Logos absorbed the loss) and the sales were very weak...it was never a large part of their market...so they decided to just severe the tie.
Why not keep Logos Bible software in the Christian bookstores? 

Of course it's not going to be a major part of the overall sales of Logos 4, but at least it's a running advertisement that's continually there - where people can see it. 

I bought my first Logos product in a Christian bookstore and I wouldn't have even known that it existed if it wasn't out there to be seen.

I understand the thinking of Logos, from a business stand point, especially if they were relying on "in store presence" as a source of sales, but I still think it's a mistake to pull out all together because they should be thinking of it as a continual advertising opportunity, and nothing else.

At least people will know it's available - especially people who would never do a Google search for Bible Software.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2010 9:35 PM

Stein Dahl:
I understand the thinking of Logos, from a business stand point, especially if they were relying on "in store presence" as a source of sales, but I still think it's a mistake to pull out all together because they should be thinking of it as a continual advertising opportunity, and nothing else.

Advertising that produces no sales??? Huh? Who wants to do that?

Logos pulled it because their data showed very few sales and a good degree of theft or missing product to boot. Again, why do you want to continue to pour money into that??

The point is Logos tried it, the number of sales was not zero (some of you) but it was not enough to justify keeping that channel open. End of story. Let's use our energy to help Logos find a better way to get the word out if we really are interested in increasing their sales.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 12:52 AM

Mark A. Smith:
This where I have to disagree. Logos cannot be appreciated with a small library of public domain works. People will leave unimpressed and will not spend more.

Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good. 

Bohuslav

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