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Posts 121
ManilaDave | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2015 3:04 PM
I can see no point in continuing to invest in a programme that may develop a bug that wipes out resources on my device 6,000 miles away. To have to leave resources one has purchased in the "air" and dependent on the availability of the Internet rather than have them to hand on my device is particularly unattractive. I don't think this was what I bought into with Logos 4. It wasn't what I had with Libronix. Logos has become something different. It seems like we can't protect what we bought any more
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2015 3:30 PM

ManilaDave:
I don't think this was what I bought into with Logos 4. It wasn't what I had with Libronix. Logos has become something different.

But Logos 6 still works the same way in this regard.

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 15 2015 3:33 PM

ManilaDave:
I can see no point in continuing to invest in a programme that may develop a bug that wipes out resources on my device 6,000 miles away.

There's already a case for this issue.  If the mobile app can't authenticate properly it determines that resource licenses are invalid, which is what you experienced on your iPad.

ManilaDave:
To have to leave resources one has purchased in the "air" and dependent on the availability of the Internet rather than have them to hand on my device is particularly unattractive.

As I previously mentioned, it is up to you whether you download all of your resources to your mobile device or not.  It sounds like you have a very valid reason for doing so whereas many do not have a valid reason (other than they want to because it's possible).  There are many previous posts on the topic of downloading all resources and the disadvantages of doing so.

ManilaDave:
I don't think this was what I bought into with Logos 4. It wasn't what I had with Libronix.

The mobile apps are not Logos 4 or any way equivalent to our Desktop apps.  Back in the Logos 4 days the mobile apps barely existed (they were in version 1.x).  Libronix had zero support for mobile devices so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.

ManilaDave:
Logos has become something different. It seems like we can't protect what we bought any more

What you experienced is an authentication/licensing issue in the mobile app.  Your books didn't get wiped out on Desktop or become inaccessible in any other way.  There's already a case for this issue and we'll get it solved.  

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2015 2:16 PM

Dear Kevin: If we download all our resources, it's largely to protect ourselves from internet/cloud issues.
Many, if not most of us- cannot be dependent on an internet connection to do our work, access our software and resources at all times, we have to be flexible.

Example: My tablet isn't primarily an internet device. It is a tablet computer, one that just happens to use the internet and related "clouds" to download data/resources etc.

This week I have been at a convention center and hotel which in both, internet access was "iffy" at best. When connected, speeds we often at dial-up levels. Deep within the building, tethering wouldn't work because phone signal became very poor.
None of that changes the need to use the resources I/we pay for.

We are the customers - what "we need" is important.
Granted- We don't pay a fee to have our resources on our tablets. I think many of us are just shocked to see what we thought of as our "safety net" wasn't that at all.
I personally had no idea not being able to log in could erase things from my tablet.
Actually interested in how data gets erased? ( If we cant log into to your servers, how does your server remove our resources or- does server access just exchange license info and without it, the resources become bricked? )

Thanks for your help.


Just trying to help.

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2015 2:20 PM

As I mentioned twice before, there is already a case for this issue, which means we are aware of the problem and a bug has been reported.  We intend to fix this issue.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2015 2:27 PM

Understood Kevin- thanks!

One question, if not related- Thats cool.
Is the new sign in the cause or the effect?

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2015 2:29 PM

Im still curious though: Are our downloaded resources still on our Mobiles devices and we are just locked out or, were they removed/erased/deleted?

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 16 2015 2:44 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Is the new sign in the cause or the effect?

The sign-in changes are unrelated to the issue of resources being deleted from the device.  Before we added the single sign-in change (and before we changed the company name from Logos to Faithlife, which is unrelated at all to any software bugs!), this issue could occur if you attempting (for example) to change your password and then couldn't remember what you changed it to.

The root of the issue is the app checks whether or not a customer is licensed for the resources on the system.  If for some reason things don't match up and/or another issue completely unrelated to the mobile apps (like the authentication sign-in bug that happened Monday night) occurs, the app thinks you don't own the resources or have a license to use them, and so it deletes them.  It's really as simple as that... and yes, we intend to fix it.!

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2015 3:53 PM

Glad to hear you intend to fix this- I would suggest you worry about license issues on the front end, and stop erasing our data on this end.
Unless we are being told we actually don't own anything at all and are just "renting books" , its pretty violating to delate our books without asking permission.

I also have Accordance- whatever is downloaded, is downloaded. Its no longer dependent on the web, doesn't get erased if there is a problem at Accordance etc.
I can use tablet/phone off line- no issues etc.

Its starting to feel more and more like faith life wants to tell us what we can have and when, how to use it- even to your point of saying you don't know why we download the resources and wish we wouldn't . I find that very, very disturbing from Logos/Faithlife staff "if" we actually own anything at all. "If " we don't own anything, but are just "licensing " ( this means rent folks) then we really don't have any "rights" and i can understand your frustration- just don't let us download resources at all- just access the cloud.

If the latter isn't the case- how we use our resources , what we download and do not , is our affair and, we have reason to be concerned about data being removed from our computing devices without permission, notification, options.

Posts 121
ManilaDave | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2015 4:05 PM

I totally agree with Fr. Charles. I would also like Faith Life to consider that not everyone in every place has access to unlimited broadband. Some of us are limited by our monthly contracts to the amounts of downloads we are allowed. Anything over that limit must be paid for at very significant rates. If Faith Life sees fit to delete from our machines resources we have downloaded after paying for them, then Faith Life should carry the cost of restoring them. 

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2015 10:45 AM

Charles,

We get it.  What you experienced is a bug and we're aware of it, there's a case for it, and we intend to fix it.  This bug was not by design, was not intended, was not planned.

We don't like what happened, we didn't want it to happen and we don't want it to happen in the future. We don't like bugs and don't intend them to happen. We don't purposely add bugs just make life miserable for our customers. We don't plan unplanned outages. We don't want to tell you (and have not ever told you) when, how, what, where, etc. you can use your resources (yes, they are your resources). We don't want to leave customers feeling violated. We're not intentionally removing or denying your rights for anything at all.

What else would you like me to say?

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2015 11:58 AM

ManilaDave:
I would also like Faith Life to consider that not everyone in every place has access to unlimited broadband.

We know this already and have long considered it.

ManilaDave:
Some of us are limited by our monthly contracts to the amounts of downloads we are allowed. Anything over that limit must be paid for at very significant rates.

Network venders or contracts chosen by customers are not Faithlife's responsibility.

ManilaDave:
If Faith Life sees fit to delete from our machines resources we have downloaded after paying for them, then Faith Life should carry the cost of restoring them. 

As I keep reiterating over and over, it's a bug.  Please see my response to Charles above.

Posts 121
ManilaDave | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2015 1:54 PM

Kevin, from your explanation earlier it doesn't sound like the deletion of resources is a bug but a programmed response when the app thinks we don't own the resources???? Is not the bug "the app thinking we don't own the resources"? If that is the case then Faith Life is legally responsible for costs inflicted by the programme on its customers as the deletion is not the bug per se but the response of the app. 

You are making a great case for walking away from Logos. 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2015 7:02 PM

Dear Kevin: Would you mind asking Faithlife to try and engineer something that both meets the needs of publisher contracts and customer protections?

Its pretty apparent the current method is lacking for our end of the situation. I understand Faithlife has to deal with protections for publishers, materials etc.

At the same time, we too have needs and, though much of society no longer realizes this: We pay for everything- the consumer funds everything- literally.

Thus, we too need protections for our resources of time and labor, not to mention financial investments.

We just need some protections in place so that bugs etc don't actually erase our data.
I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated if we were locked out of online resources/updates etc until bugs were resolved- I think everyone would understand that- It's just the loss of data that requires investments on our end that's at issue- at least for me.

Lastly, I'm concerned about being "back-doored" through Logos servers- if you can actually delete my library without my knowledge through a bug, I can only imagine what a hacker could get at through your system.

Just mentioning a concern.

Thanks and, Grace and Peace to you and yours.

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2015 8:10 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Dear Kevin: Would you mind asking Faithlife to try and engineer something that both meets the needs of publisher contracts and customer protections?

Charles,

Please create a new post in the suggestions forum at https://community.logos.com/forums/28.aspx .

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2015 5:08 AM

It was just some thought I was hoping you could bring up in meetings instead of us

Posts 4264
LogosEmployee
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2015 6:15 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

It was just some thought I was hoping you could bring up in meetings instead of us

Charles,

I'm sorry, I can't do that.  You have mentioned several quite serious concerns and issues.  I am not authorized to represent you to Faithlife's legal counsel or executives and have been instructed to no longer comment on this thread.

Posts 980
LogosEmployee
Dave Dunkin (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2015 10:59 AM

As best we can tell, the app is functioning as designed.

If a user is signed out, e.g. by a password change or security reset, the app will prompt the user for his or her current password. The app does not remove local data while immediately when this happens. If the user provides the current password, the user is signed back in and everything remains as it was. If the user cancels the sign in screen, then the user is signed out and local data is removed.

The UI is not well designed for this scenario and it's not obvious to the user that he is signing out by not providing the password. We will improve the UI to make it harder to accidentally sign out. We are also already working on storing user data differently so that it doesn't have to be removed immediately when the user signs out.

Posts 5315
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2015 11:11 AM

Kevin Byford (Faithlife):

Charles,

I'm sorry, I can't do that.  You have mentioned several quite serious concerns and issues.  I am not authorized to represent you to Faithlife's legal counsel or executives and have been instructed to no longer comment on this thread.

This is a very troubling. I realize the issues dealt with in this thread are complex but to not be able to discuss issues with an official FL representative seems very messed up. My internet is dependant on good weather here and on the east coast because of the fact I am on a satellite. The cell coverage can be very spotty... And know in many countries not only is wireless access rarer it is very expensive. It is also possible that the iPad is his only computer. I know several over people that the iPad is all the computer they need or want. The only thing I can suggest to do is look at Olivetree or Accordance software that requires no internet connection to run the mobile apps. I have only the core of my library on my iPhone and iPad but the time i had to reinstall the items was frustrating again people were asking me why do you have 1100 resources on your iPhone the answer is I want all my core reference works available when i have no connection. FL should be embarrassed by the lack of functionality their mobile programs have. Olivetree offers everything on device, and it is faster than using FL cloud service. Before FL looks are Logos 7 maybe they should actually look at delivering a full functioning mobile platform.

-Dan

Posts 5315
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 22 2015 11:23 AM

Dave Dunkin (Faithlife):
The UI is not well designed for this scenario and it's not obvious to the user that he is signing out by not providing the password. We will improve the UI to make it harder to accidentally sign out. We are also already working on storing user data differently so that it doesn't have to be removed immediately when the user signs out.

Thank you for your response... the other response made me fear FL was abandoning this thread and leaving no answer (which I found very disturbing and prompted my response above.)

-dan

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