Fundamentalist Base Package and King James Only Resource Collection

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:03 AM

From memory one of the reasons that Logos introduced the "tradition" focused collections was the criticism that the standard base packages were too fundamentalist/evangelical in content.

Would definitely like to see more of Burgon as he is badly misquoted by so many and so being able to read him in context would be of real value. Shame with Burgon is that he did not write more.

Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.

https://biblia.com/media/388945-2721812--

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:12 AM

Xegesis,

we are in the Suggestions forum here. There is a longstanding practice here to not belittle or criticise those suggestions - Faithlife will anyway decide independently upon whether it's worthwile to go after the suggested things or not. But in the best interest of all users and Faithlife, the forums are a place for nice conversation among many groups who hold different presupposations regarding 'authority' and many other things.

I think it's encouraging that someone from within the group comes here to ask for such resources, which might help them in their bible study. Doing such with Logos may help some to see beyond the edge of their self-drawn circle - and it may help others to be better students, pastors, teachers, elders, parents within the circle.

To put material together (probably in a "library builder bundle" first rather than a real base package) wouldn't hurt Faithlife, and such material might be of wider interest anyway. 

Mick

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:48 AM

Xegesis:

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on as the KJV only crowd can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says.  The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles.

{boldface emphasis mine} I disagree. This popular saying is more accurate,, "The King James Bible is God's word for the English-speaking peoples." The King James only churches recognize foreign language translations to be useful and have been known to refer to the Hebrew and Greek for word studies.

I belong to an IFB KJB-only church and I have 22,770+ resources that include

Logos 6:  Collector's Edition,  Master Bundle, XL,  Reformed PortfolioBaptist Diamond, Anglican Diamond,  Lutheran Platinum,  Pentecostal & Charismatic Silver .

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Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 9:16 AM

Xegesis:

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says.  The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles to this crowd.

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.        

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 11:06 AM

Graham Owen:
Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.

I am not sure that would be considered acceptable as a package by the person who requested it. I suggested barnes for example because on the 1 John coda Barnes mentions the problems with it and offers theories for and against it. I included it as a possible commentary and apparently for him Barnes would not be acceptable. I am not trying to be overly critical of his desire, but I am not sure the best things in Logos library to include in such a package. Because generally Logos base packages start out at $300 and contain around 200 resources. Logos has stated on several occasions they have no desire to have a cheaper stater package. Therefore to get a KJV only package set up you need to have a significant number of resources if we are to include only very pro TR only resources that defend the integrity and wording I am not sure 200 resources will be found and if a large number of the resources are not already in Logos there becomes an issue. Looking at John Gill's treatment of the coda he may be an acceptable one but if Logos needs to add in mostly new it will likely require thousands of preorders before it will ever be made. We have strong KJV users like SuperTramp who have a broad selection of resources and he and others like him may be able to flesh out an acceptable collection. The question then ends up will Logos create it, I hope thy do for the users desiring it, but generally a base package is only created when a significant number of required resources are already in Logos.

-Dan

Posts 2
Bill Hardecker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 11:31 AM

I agree with KJB1611. I would also add the works of Edward F. Hills and Everett and Peter Van Kleek.

Posts 2
Bill Hardecker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 11:35 AM

Everett Fowler to be exact...sorry about that.Surprise

Posts 98
Xegesis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 12:00 PM

Thanks Mick, my goal was only to assist faithlife in case they were wondering if it was worth investing their resources in building this package.  It is from 20 years experience of being in IFB KJV Only Churches.  My wife's church phone number was 1-800-KJV-ONLY.  I'm very familiar with how MANY(not all) in this group approach things.  For many it's, "All I need is my KJV Bible".  That is why I don't see this being worth the time for faithlife to invest in.  However ,while I now disagree with the IFB KJV Only movement, I do respect and appreciate them for believing that God's word is the final authority for their life and I consider most my brother and sister in Christ.

Posts 98
Xegesis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 12:05 PM

Watch Steven Anderson's interview of James White and you will see examples of a KJV Only individual who refused to believe the original language over his KJV Bible.  That's an example of what I meant by the KJV being the Final Authority.  

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 1:06 PM

I know a solid group of colleges and churches that would be interested in this package. I would probably pick of the package myself since I'll probably be teaching in one that would make use of this collection. It would also need access to these two resources:

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/113439.aspx

Additionally, TBS has a set of journals and resources in general that would enhance this package for sure, so Faithlife/Logos would want to collaborate with them on it. Collaboration with PCC/A Beka Book for this package would be good as well.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 4:20 PM

Xegesis:

Watch Steven Anderson's interview of James White and you will see examples of a KJV Only individual who refused to believe the original language over his KJV Bible.  That's an example of what I meant by the KJV being the Final Authority.  

Do you have any idea what exact manuscript or text was under discussion? If they were rejecting the NU text that is to be understood as they are TR text people and they see the NU as corrupt [[N as in Nestle-Aland and U as in United Bible Society]]

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:02 PM

I fully admit I can only speak for the churches I've attended in my relatively brief life. However my travels have taken me to churches in 26 states, and 10 countries (including USA). To date, I've met (counting supertramp - whose posts I always make a point to read, but not counting OP or others who I am less familiar with that have posted in this thread) a grand total of 5 KJV only folks. 3 simply believed that TR was a better document to use as a source, one of them felt like (and I kid you not he said) the NIV and all the newer translations were translated by lesbians and sinners and shouldn't be taken seriously (which made me chuckle).

The fifth guy showed up at a bible study we were having at a coffee shop, simply to make a nuisance of himself. Said that everything that came out of my mouth was damnable heresy because of the translation I was using and attempted to wrestle the group from the scripture we were studying onto his pet subject (kjv). When I pressed him he said that only the kjv is inspired and I (and the group) would be going to hell for reading from the NASB.

I highly doubt guy 5 represented the opinions of the entire movement. But there it is any way.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:48 PM

While I know "enough" people that would market a KJV-only type collection, I like the OP's post to make the collection as a "fundamental" collection. In addition to including the KJV, TR, and HMT, there's additional resources that could round out this collection. TBS Journals would be interesting to have, many of the books mentioned above would be interesting to have, as well as The Fundamentals could be included, as well as PCC has a list of recommended resources for building one's library (Barnhouse Commentaries, etc). Throwing those in, maybe some other older English translations (Wycliffe and Tyndale), and some resources from A Beka (their Bible Doctrines and Genesis and Revelation books would be interesting to have) and you've got a solid collection that would appeal to a good set of users, and I would personally be able to recommend this collection to various churches and colleges I know.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 26 2015 8:50 PM

David Ames:

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.        

I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 8:34 AM

MJ. Smith:

David Ames:

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.        

I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.

That's a graceful way of putting it. In addition to the question of which base textual tradition to use, my sense is that there has also been a concern over some of the interpretive choices of newer English translations, which are perceived by many in the movement as theologically liberal.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 11:12 AM

EastTN:

MJ. Smith:

David Ames:

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.        

I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.

That's a graceful way of putting it. In addition to the question of which base textual tradition to use, my sense is that there has also been a concern over some of the interpretive choices of newer English translations, which are perceived by many in the movement as theologically liberal.

For many of these people it is far more than manuscript choice. I have read very heated attacks at why the NKJV version can not be trusted. What is being asked for is  a package where you have only the KJV (although it might be acceptable to have the 1611 version as we as the 1769 version that is in current use). But this becomes possibly one of the issues with this "base package" would Logos even consider releasing a base package with only one translation? For the most part I would logically think the NKJV and even the Amplified Bible could be acceptable since they preserve the TR tradition but only annotate in notes the textual variants. I do want him to get his package but I do believe it ends up a more difficult thing when the base package is limited to one translation. I get quite the laugh when I think of NASB or HCSB as being liberal, I do not think the KJV people see them so much liberal as simply heresy or diabolical corruption.

-Dan

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 11:36 AM

KJB1611:

I should have been more clear--I was making TWO suggestions, one for a KJV-only collection, and one for a fundamentalist base package.  They were two separate suggestions.

I haven't seen much direct discussion inclusive of this clarification by the OP.

A KJV-only collection or bundle would be an interesting resource. I'm not a KJV-only adherent, but a collection of pro-KJV-only resources would be useful for a variety of reasons.

Posts 32
KJB1611 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 1:59 PM

Some replies to comments above:

Xegesis had stated;

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says.  The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them.

My response:  I am KJV-only, but I teach Greek and Hebrew at an undergraduate level and at a seminary level. I can sight read most of the Greek NT, and am memorizing John's Gospel in Greek, and read the Greek and Hebrew Textus Receptus every week.  In church, as preaching is done from the KJV, I follow along in my Greek TR.  You can get a free 1st year Hebrew class on my website, faithsaves.net (1st semester is up, 2nd semester is coming, Lord willing).  Perhaps, Xegesis, you would do well to purchase a KJV-only bundle yourself to get a bit more of an accurate idea of what KJV-only people believe.  Are there some people who are KJV only who have very strange ideas?  Sure, just like in just about every other theological position.  Does KJV-only mean hide your head in the sand and ignore the Biblical languages?  No.  Thanks.

Also, I am thankful for the work James White has done dealing with Islam, Catholicism, etc.  Regrettably, when dealing with KJV-only people he seems to pick out the most extreme and most indefensible people, like Mr. Anderson.  In my view, at least, Ruckmanism is extremely harmful to the KJV-only position because it paints it in a very bizzare light.  I wish Mr. White would agree with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith he subscribes to as an elder at a Reformed Baptist church and recognize that "The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages," and recognize that when his own confession of faith quotes 1 John 5:7, Mark 16, etc. it means the Textus Receptus is the Word of God, not a critical text that did not exist nor was in use by God's people and thus was not kept "pure in all ages."

Response to abondservant;

One can find here:

http://www.fundamental.org/index.php/schools

a list that is far from comprehensive of KJV-only Bible colleges (this one is restricted to Baptists, excluding KJV people in other denominations). There are lots and lots and lots of us, and many of us have Logos.

Response to N. B. Mick:

Thanks for reproving Xegesis.  Let me suggest, though, that perhaps not all of us KJV-only people are unable to see beyond a self-drawn circle.  Thanks again.

Response to Graham Owen:

I like Barnes' Commentary--it is great.  My point was that it is not something on the textual debate like the books above, and so it would not be part of a KJV-only package which would deal with textual and translational issues.

Response to Dan Francis;

Good point--a KJV-only collection would definitely do well to have a 1611 KJV replica--which I think is in the public domain-- as well as the 1769.

Thanks for all the comments.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 2:04 PM

I feel ignoredCrying as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position.Wink However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 2:35 PM

MJ. Smith:

I feel ignoredCrying as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position.Wink However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.

I respect and most likely agree with your position. For me the Christian thing to do is to support KJB1611 and those like them as they attempt to follow Jesus in how they are lead by the Spirit. I love your fallacy hound but try to just let him play lovingly with all God's children.

-Dan

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