Hebrew Clause Search Question

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Larry | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 31 2015 11:52 AM

I am doing a clause search to see every time that God is the subject of the verb chapetz. So I type subject:God verb-lemma:chapetz (using the Hebrew that pops up) and get two occurrences (Psa 35:27 and Mic 7:18). It omits Psalm 135:6 where the Lord does whatever he pleases (which is the text of study).

However in the Bible Word Study under clause participants, it lists 32 occurrences under the same search (though the words are reversed at the bottom of the results list). I tried reversing the words and got the same two occurrences as originally, and I clicked on the clause search at the bottom of the results list and got nothing.

Is this something on my end or something on Logos' end?

Edited to add: Psalm 135:6 doesn't seem to appear in any of the results list in the Bible Word study, though the similar Psa 115:3 does. 

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Michael Meiser (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2015 12:50 PM

Larry,

Thanks for the question. There is a lot here, so I will walk it through step-by-step.

Larry:
So I type subject:God verb-lemma:chapetz (using the Hebrew that pops up) and get two occurrences (Psa 35:27 and Mic 7:18).

The reason for receiving only two results is that you selected the instance where the Hebrew Lemma is the adjectival form of the Hebrew root. If you would have instead selected the first option in the drop down, this would have found the 30+ instances of the verbal form of the root. See image below for both search results. 

Instead of running the search for "verb-lemma:חפץ.1" run it instead for "verb-root:חפץ.1." This will find all of the instances, both verbal and adjectival.

 

Larry:
It omits Psalm 135:6 where the Lord does whatever he pleases (which is the text of study).

My best guess a the reason this is omitted is two-fold. 1) Andersen-Forbes identify this clause as part of the Direct Object of the verbal idea "to do" in their syntax analysis. 2) the person of God from the referent database is not tagged on this verbal idea.

It is my opinion that we should put this under review to receive tagging. We need to at least have the person:God attached to the verbal idea in this clause. I think this was a good find on your part.

I hope this helps to explain a bit further what is going on.

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Posts 81
Larry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2015 4:28 PM

Thanks for that. I have been experimenting here with it. A couple of follow-ups if you don't mind. (I am new to clause searches; this is the first one I have ever done except for a sample one.)

If I understand you correctly above, if I use "verb-root:1.חפץ" (as you did) it should return Psalm 135:6 should it not? It doesn't for me. If I take out the subject and just do a clause search on "verb-root:1.חפץ" it includes the two from the previous search on the verb-lemma, but it doesn't return Psalm 135:6. I cannot get any clause search on חפץ to return Psalm 135:6. Psal 135:6 doesn't seem to show up anywhere in the Bible Word Study either.

The only way to get Psalm 135:6 to return is to do a morph search on lemma:חפץ:1 or a basic search.

Is that because of the tagging issue you mentioned at the end?

Pardon the questions. I already know what I want for this particular study, but I would like to learn more about how to use it. 

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Michael Meiser (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2015 5:39 PM

Thanks for the follow up questions, Larry.

Larry:
If I understand you correctly above, if I use "verb-root:1.חפץ" (as you did) it should return Psalm 135:6 should it not?

Just fyi, Clause search came to be as the "love child" of two already existing datasets; the syntax dataset and the referent dataset. This is why you can search it for syntactical categories like "subject" and "object", but also why it can be searched for people, places, and things that serve these syntactic roles.

It appears that the reason Psalm 135:6 does not show up in the search is that the verbal idea we are looking for in this verse is not found in the dataset. Notice the image below shows that this verse does not populate when running a simple search for "verb-root:חפץ.1."

 

My initial guess was that its categorization in the Andersen-Forbes syntax dataset caused this. Since this verbal idea in the Andersen-Forbes syntax dataset exists as part of a group of words that make up the direct object of the clause as opposed to verb, this may cause it to not be found in the clause search using the syntax "verb-lemma" or "verb-root." 

However, after looking at it further, there are other cases where this verb is part of the direct object of the clause, and is still found by the clause search syntax of "verb-root." Psalm 115:3 is a case example. (see image below)

My final answer is, I have no clue why this doesn't show up other than it is simply missing information in the dataset that should be there. I will need one of our dataset curators to look at this to verify what the next steps are here.

The morphological tagging on the word level works just fine which is why you can find this verse by running simple morph searches on lemmas and roots. 

Larry:
Psal 135:6 doesn't seem to show up anywhere in the Bible Word Study either.

I was able to find a hit for this lemma in the Bible Word Study's translation section. This section is based on basic morphological data.

It does not, however, show up in the Clause Participants section. Probably for many of the same reasons listed above. The Clause Participants section in the BWS is pulling data in a similar, if not exactly the same way, as the Clause search. Hence, we can expect similar, if not the same, results.

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Posts 81
Larry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 1:23 PM

Thanks so much for your help. 

I wonder if it would be good (or even possible) for a clause like this to show up both as a subject and an object. I think God would be the subject of חפץ here (God delights) and the whole clause (God delights) is an object clause of עשה. I guess that's for the Hebrew minds and the dataset people who tag these things.

One last question if you have time. In the Bible Word Study clause participants section, at the end of each section is a link to the search used. But when I click on that, it opens up a clause search window with 0 results. Is that supposed to do something? It seems like it should reproduce the clause participants results in its own window. 

Again, thanks so much for your help on this.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 1:53 PM

Larry:

One last question if you have time. In the Bible Word Study clause participants section, at the end of each section is a link to the search used. But when I click on that, it opens up a clause search window with 0 results. Is that supposed to do something? It seems like it should reproduce the clause participants results in its own window. 

There is a fix to this in 6.5 beta 4 - https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.5_Beta_4 - so should be resolved when 6.5 ships

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Graham Criddle:
There is a fix to this in 6.5 beta 4 - https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.5_Beta_4 - so should be resolved when 6.5 ships

Thanks for the link on that Graham!

Larry:
One last question if you have time. In the Bible Word Study clause participants section, at the end of each section is a link to the search used. But when I click on that, it opens up a clause search window with 0 results. Is that supposed to do something? It seems like it should reproduce the clause participants results in its own window. 

Larry, if you follow the link that Graham posted, you can find the answer to your question there. Here is what it says, 

"Bible Word Study

Fixed bug causing incorrect results in Clause Participants section. (Thread)
Fixed bug where Clause Search hyperlinks were incorrect for Semantic Roles."

Looks like they were aware of the issue. Should be fixed soon.

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Peter Venable | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 3 2015 1:09 PM

The next release of the clause database will include a fix to Psalm 135:6 identifying God as the subject of the verb חָפֵ֥ץ

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