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Posts 70
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Aug 9 2015 8:26 AM

what is the next best thing already included with Logos to the HALOT?

Posts 162
Clifford B. Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 8:28 AM

Jonathan Bradley:

what is the next best thing already included with Logos to the HALOT?

The next best thing to HALOT would probably be the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew, which is included in the Collector's Edition.*

Cliff

* This resource is almost complete and will download automatically once it ships.

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 10:42 AM

Clifford B. Kvidahl:

Jonathan Bradley:

what is the next best thing already included with Logos to the HALOT?

The next best thing to HALOT would probably be the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew, which is included in the Collector's Edition.*

Cliff

* This resource is almost complete and will download automatically once it ships.

I beg to differ. I challenge anyone who has actually used DCH in a real life situation as opposed to reading promotional material about it, to show me a single instance where DCH really assisted him in interpreting the Hebrew Bible (and I own a copy of DCH...)

The next best thing to HALOT and what many would say is still the best lexicon around is BDB. The Enhanced Logos edition is a treat.

Posts 70
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 11:31 AM

Is that the Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon?

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 11:34 AM

Exactly! Always check etymologies (not included in DCH anyway) against HALOT.

Posts 70
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 11:46 AM

Now I have never taken a class on languages or used the resources very much before, and I am wanting to learn. What are the various elements there in the DBD entries that I need to know for learning? I looked up the word "belong" from Jonah 2:9 in the BDB that is in the screenshot below. Thanks for any help I can get! 

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 12:15 PM
If you don't intend to study Hebrew, an original language lexicon will be of little use to you. The entry shows the corresponding prepositions in cognate languages, the inflection of the preposition documented in the Hebrew Bible, example uses definitions and the words used in parallel to this preposition.
Posts 70
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 12:36 PM

I do plan on studying it, but not in the immediate future. In the mean time, I want to learn what I can. 

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 12:39 PM

Perhaps the abridged editions will suit better your current needs. There is an abridged HALOT by Holladay.

Posts 57
James | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 1:24 PM

Clifford B. Kvidahl:
* This resource is almost complete and will download automatically once it ships.

Cliff, do you have an approximate ETA on that one?

Logos 6 Gold, Logos 7 Reformed Diamond 

Alienware R2 17  i7-4720HQ 3.6GHz 16GB RAM 1TB HDD 256GB SSD GTX970 3GB DDR5

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 1:39 PM

David Knoll:

I beg to differ. I challenge anyone who has actually used DCH in a real life situation as opposed to reading promotional material about it, to show me a single instance where DCH really assisted him in interpreting the Hebrew Bible (and I own a copy of DCH...)

The next best thing to HALOT and what many would say is still the best lexicon around is BDB. The Enhanced Logos edition is a treat.

Could you cite some instances where DCH has been singularly unhelpful? Interested to know because I've been wondering whether I should continue with the pre-pub order.

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 1:55 PM

It usually follows BDB with the integration of occurrences in the DSS and the inscriptions which you can find by running a search in Logos or using the BWS. I cannot recall a single time I used this lexicon in which there was anything important missing in BDB or HALOT. 

Why don't you give me a lexeme and we shall compare the treatment in all three. 

Choose one without many occurrences so that we can make a thorough comparison.

Posts 1645
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 1:55 PM

Jonathan Bradley:

I do plan on studying it, but not in the immediate future. In the mean time, I want to learn what I can. 

One thing that I like about the BDB is the ability to use the visual filter titled "Outline formatting". It makes things easier for me to organize in my mind. In the pictures below, I used your example of Jonah 2:9 to show the difference.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 70
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 5:18 PM

Thank you for your help with this. I currently am gong for my MTS, and am thinking of switching to MDiv. But, if I don't, I'm thinking about buying a Mobile Ed Course on Greek and Hebrew, 

Posts 490
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 6:37 PM

Similarly, what recommendations would everyone have regarding original language prioritizations - specifically for words studies and the like?  Along with Jonathan, I don't read/speak either Greek or Hebrew and just kinda guessed when I prioritized! I'm working with L3 Scholars and recently L6 Gold standard. 

Thanks!!

MBPro'12 / i5 / 8GB // 3.0 Scholars (Purple) / L6 & L7 Platinum, M&E Platinum, Anglican Bronze, P&C Silver / L8 Platinum, Academic Pro

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 6:44 PM

Richard Villanueva:

Similarly, what recommendations would everyone have regarding original language prioritizations - specifically for words studies and the like?  Along with Jonathan, I don't read/speak either Greek or Hebrew and just kinda guessed when I prioritized! I'm working with L3 Scholars and recently L6 Gold standard. 

Thanks!!

If you don't know the original language, choose the lexicon with the shortest entries. Just glosses and short definitions without all the technical information. Always remember that you will never be able to make judgements regarding the meaning of the original text without mastering the original language. Don't waste your money on expensive tools which do not suit your needs (and in the case of DCH anyone's needs).

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 9 2015 6:47 PM

Jonathan Bradley:

Thank you for your help with this. I currently am gong for my MTS, and am thinking of switching to MDiv. But, if I don't, I'm thinking about buying a Mobile Ed Course on Greek and Hebrew, 

I would ask around before purchasing the mobile/online courses. It is not easy to study Greek or Hebrew and not everyone succeeds even with a full academic course. Other people's experience can help you make an informed decision.

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 8:03 AM

David Knoll:

Why don't you give me a lexeme and we shall compare the treatment in all three. 

Choose one without many occurrences so that we can make a thorough comparison.

Sure, I'll give two. צַלְמָ֫וֶת and the hapax חרך

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 11:09 AM

I think there is no need for discussion. the entries speak for themselves. I only want to draw your attention to the fact that DCH has three entries for צלמות (two of them exactly the same) and while it is not that difficult to read all the data together since they come one after the other, in other instances, when the difference is not merely in the vocalisation, the entries are separate and not close to each other :

צלמות

BDB:

†צַלְמָ֫וֶת S6757 TWOT1921b GK7516 n.[m.] death-shadow, deep shadow, poet. • (prob. = צֵל + מָוֶת, 𝔊 (usually) σκιὰ θανάτου, cf. 𝔖 𝔙, so Thes SchwallyLeben n. d. Tode, 194, v. especially Nö xvii (1897), 183 ff.; Ew Br and most mod. (after older comm.) read צַלְמוּת darkness, deep darkness, cp. Arabic ظَلَمَ (ẓalama) IV, Assyrian [ṣalâmu], Ethiopic ጸልመ (ṣalma) be black, dark);

— • death-shadow, cf. ظُلْمَةٌ (ẓulmatun) 6, often || חֹשֶׁךְ, לַיְלָה, etc., and opp. בֹּקֶר, אוֹר. 1. = deep shadow, darkness (cf. הַרְרֵי אֵל, אַרְזֵי אֵל): • Am 5:8; Jb 3:5; 12:22; 24:17a; 28:3; 34:22; • of eyes heavy with weeping 16:16; • בַּלְהוֹת צ׳ 24:17b terrors of the darkness.

2. fig. a. of distress Je 13:16 ψ 107:10, 14; • אֶרֶץ צ׳ Is 9:1. b. of extreme danger Je 2:6 ψ 23:4; 44:20. 3. characterizing world of the dead, אֶרֶץ חֹשֶׁךְ וצ׳ Jb 10:21, כְּמוֹ אֹפֶל צ׳ v 22 (text dub., v. Bu Du); • וְשַׁעֲרֵי צ׳ 38:17 (𝔊 πυλωροὶ δὲ ᾅδου; || שַׁעֲרֵי־מָ

HALOT:

צַלְמָ֫וֶת (Oriental צֵ׳, Kahle Text 74 and Ost. 196); • Sept. σκῖα Θανάτου; • probably by popular folk etymology from צֵל and מָוֶת; • < *צַלְמוּת (II צלם), see Gesenius-B.; • KBL; • see also Zorell Lex. :: Hehn MVAG 22 (1918) 79ff; • cf. Bauer-L. Heb. 506u; • MHeb., DSS (Kuhn Konkordanz 187): • gloom (deeper than חֹשֶׁךְ), an impenetrable gloom, pitch, darkness, see W. Thomas JSS 7 (1962) 191-200; • Tromp BiblOr. 21 (1969) 140-142; • Koch ZAW 86 (1974) 519; • cf. Barr Questions disputées de l’AT (Louvain, 1974) 52ff; • (THAT 1:87: 18 times, 10 times in Job).

1. Am 58 (:: בֹּקֶר), Jr 1316 (:: אוֹר), Ps 4420, 10710.14 (parallel with חֹשֶׁךְ), Jb 35 3422 (parallel with חֹשֶׁךְ), 1022 (parallel with אֹפֶל), 1222 (:: אוֹר), 2417 (::

בֹּקֶר), עַפְעַפֵּי צַ׳ 1616, אֶבֶן אֹפֶל וְצַ׳ 283. 2.אֶרֶץ צַלְמָוֶת Is 91, אֶרֶץ צִיָּה וְצַ׳ Jr 26, אֶרֶץ חֹשֶׁךְ וְצַ׳ Jb 1021, שַׁעֲרֵי צַ׳ 3817, גֵּיא צַ׳ Ps 234. †

DCH:

צַלְמָ֫וֶת 18.0.1 n.[m.] shadow of death, gloom, deep darkness, compound of צֵל shadow and ‏מָוֶת death (‏מָוֶת perh. being understood as indicating a superlative, thus deep darkness*), or em. all occurrences to ‏צַלְמוֹת darkness or צַלְמוּת darkness, הפך turn (into) Am 58. אֶרֶץ צַלְמָוֶת land of the shadow of death Is 92 Jr 26, גֵּיא valley of Ps 234. לְ into, + שׂים place, i.e. turn Jr 1316; בְּ of instrument, by (means of), with, + כסה pi. cover Ps 4419, שׂוך fence in 1QH 1333. צַלְמָוֶת || עֲרָפֶל darkness Jr 1316, לַיְלָה night Am 58; + צִיָּה dryness, dry ground Jr 26, נֶשֶׁף twilight, i.e. darkness Jr 1316; :: אוֹר light Is 92 Jr 1316, בֹּקֶר morning Am 58. Also perh. 4QPrFêtesc 1893. עֲרָפֶל darkness, לַיְלָה night. אוֹר light, בֹּקֶר morning. → צֵל shadow + מָוֶת death.

✱ ‏[צַלְמוֹת]‎ n.f.pl. darkness, alw. if em. צַלְמָוֶת shadow of death, הפך turn (into) Am 58. אֶרֶץ צַלְמוֹת land of darkness Is 92 Jr 26, גֵּיא valley of Ps 234. לְ into, + שׂים place, i.e. turn Jr 1316; בְּ of instrument, by (means of), with, + כסה pi. cover Ps 4419, שׂוך fence in 1QH 1333.

✱ ‏[צַלְמוּת]‎ n.[m.] darkness, alw. if em. צַלְמָוֶת shadow of death, הפך turn (into) Am 58. אֶרֶץ צַלְמוּת land of darkness Is 92 Jr 26, גֵּיא valley of Ps 234. לְ into, + שׂים place, i.e. turn Jr 1316; בְּ of instrument, by (means of), with, + כסה pi. cover Ps 4419, שׂוך fence in 1QH 1333.

חרך (noun) there is also a verb:

BDB:

II. חרך S2760 TWOT742 GK3047 (√ of foll.; meaning unknown).

†חֲרַכִּים S2762 TWOT742a GK3048 n.[m.]pl. lattice or other opening through which one may look (Aramaic חֲרַכָּא 𝔗 Jos 2:15 al. = Heb. חַלּוֹן; but NH חֲרָךְ is an opening smaller than a window)—only מֵצִיץ מִן־הַח׳ Ct 2:9 peeping in at the lattice (|| מַשְׁגִּיחַ מִן־הַחַלֹּנוֹת).

HALOT:

II *חרך: Arb. ḫaraqa to make a hole (Guillaume 4:7).

Der. *חָרָךְ. *חָרָךְ: II חרך: • MHb.2 חרך, JArm.tg חֲרַכָּא, window: • חֲרַכִּים, BL 558c: • lattice (Dalman Arbeit 7:74) Song 29.

DCH:

‏[חָרָךְ]‎ 1 n.m. lattice—pl. חֲרַכִּים; Gnz ‏חֲרִכִּים‎— ‏מִן of direction, from, + צוץ hi. look Ca 29 (|| חַלּוֹן window). חַלּוֹן window.

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 12:31 PM

David Knoll:

I think there is no need for discussion. the entries speak for themselves.

That was very illuminating. Thank you.

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