Sell me Logos 7 today!

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This post has 221 Replies | 12 Followers

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 10:18 AM

Matt Hamrick:
I don't understand why people are expecting a coupon for L7 if they are Now users.

It's not an expectation, it's a suggestion. 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 10:54 AM

John Goodman:

 I want to be able to buy Logos 7 and all the upgrades from now to then for a fixed price today!

John, I wonder how Logos could price something that doesn't yet exist?

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 11:08 AM

Does anyone know when L7 will be competed, Days, Weeks, Months, or Years?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 11:14 AM

Charles McNeil:

Does anyone know when L7 will be competed, Days, Weeks, Months, or Years?

No one outside of FaithLife. It is probable they have a target date, but in the past they have never shared it with us.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 11:16 AM

I should add that L6 followed L5 about two years later, so that might be a guess. That would leave over another year.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 11:48 AM

John,

We don't have specific plans for Logos 7 to announce at this point. We are listening to feedback and reading the forums.

Logos Now certainly has some things that could be part of Logos 7 -- specific new content, etc. But much of the value of Logos Now is in server-hosted content: online media, temporary access to certain resources, etc. There isn't a good way to deliver that content permanently, and we're trying to avoid a situation where we commit to permanent server-based hosting and delivery (which does cost money to maintain) for one-time purchases.

I absolutely hear and understand that many people prefer ownership to renting; I do too, for many products. But over time we'll need our revenue to match expenses (at least within some close approximation!), and as our expense model moves to 'perpetual costs for hosting / maintenance / support' we'll need a revenue model that is structured similarly.

We've all previously acted as if there's a purely transactional relationship: we build Product X, you pay onetime for Product X and own it.

But our cost to build Product X is starting to have a long tail -- you expect Product X to get bug fixes, updates when new operating systems are released, support for new mobile platforms, etc. That's more an on-going relationship than a transaction, and ultimately, one way or another, we'll need revenue to cover that.

None of this is a change from the previous explanations and plans. I'm just re-stating what's been said many times before.

For the foreseeable future we will continue to support the existing model while also strongly encouraging our users to see the benefits (for both of us!) of a hybrid model, where in addition to buying and owning specific resources, you subscribe to Logos Now (for a very reasonable cost!) in order to fund ongoing support, online content, online services, feature development, and incremental improvements.

-- Bob

Posts 276
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 1:02 PM

Bob,

I wish you would have written it this way when Logos Now was unveiled. This resonates with me a lot better than the previous ways that Logos Now has been presented.

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 3:35 PM

Bob,

  1. Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)? 
  2. Will the field testers (subscribers) receive credit when they buy Logos 7?
  3. When it comes to building "Product X", who drives the train? Faithlife Executives? the customers? or the demands from an unknown source? 
  4. What happened to old saying, "He that supplies the loot control the route?"  A time window of when L7  will be rolled may prove to be helpful many.
Posts 213
Jim Erwin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 14 2015 8:06 PM

It sounds like to me that the Logos Now subscription (and perhaps even the Logos Cloud subscription) is paying for webhosting space to hold the data. This is probably an added cost that will be ongoing. You can't really charge for that when you buy a stand-alone product. So a subscription was eventually going to have to occur. This is about the price I pay for webhosting for my website. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jimerwin/ - a postmodern pastor in a digital world

Posts 952
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 6:01 AM

Bob,

Thanks so much for your response. One of the reasons I'm a happy customer is because you listen. I've no expectation that you ought to agree to my request but I very much appreciate that you listen. Thanks.

I do understand your comments about the ongoing costs of development and web hosting etc. It is perhaps food for thought.

The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

John

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 3013
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 7:22 AM

John Goodman:
The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 8:09 AM

SineNomine:
As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

Agreed. I guess John thinks there might be an interest for people like him (and most of us) if dynamic pricing was available. I imagine it could be done if FL wanted to do it. It could produce a revenue stream for FL from that group they didn't have in mind.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1005
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 8:22 AM

Bob,

One thing you might consider would be a subscription for enhanced user support. My guess is that most students and lay workers wouldn't bite, but the pulpit minister who absolutely, positively must produce three sermons a week could benefit. It would provide a revenue stream that had a clear and easily explained rationale for a significant part of your user base - and the perceived need would likely be greater for those who already own the most resources, rather than less.

Posts 952
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 8:30 AM

SineNomine:

John Goodman:
The one issue you didn't address and I hope you will think about is dynamic pricing for the cloud rental package. I really don't like the idea that I could join that and pay the same as someone else when I already own 60-80% of what is in the package.

As FL has explicitly indicated many, many, many times, customers like you are not part of the target audience for Logos Cloud.

Yes, we are continuing a conversation which began when Logos Cloud and Logos Now were introduced. At the time I expressed my enthusiasm for the scheme because it makes Logos accessible to a new market.

I'm trying to move the conversation on though. I really enjoy using Logos software and I use it every day. I'm keen for them to find a way of including users like me in the new developments. Users like me can do basic math and understand the value of renting, in some cases it may make sense for us to rent additional content. It does not make sense to rent already owned content. It is entirely reasonable for us to request dynamic pricing. Logos have hinted in other posts that dynamic pricing of cloud or some such scheme aimed at users like me is a possibility.

I have respectfully made the case for 2 things:

1) To sell the new features for a fair price (Sell me Logos 7 today) - To which Bob has answered that it is not possible to fairly price those things except as a subscription. This I will ponder - at the moment I don't think Logos Now adds enough to capture my interest. I'm sure it will by the time Logos 7 comes out which is why I was pushing for pre-sale as the solution.

2) To offer me dynamic pricing, a subscription which is compelling. Logos Now, has a few fancy features - I get it. But what I am most interested in is more books and the latest books. Can faithlife offer me a subscription service which I do want? I'm willing to bet they can and will eventually.

Bob has always seemed very approachable, thoughtful, and kind enough to respond to such questions and I am very grateful for this. I think the software and the user experience is so much the better because we are able to have these conversations.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 952
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 8:53 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Logos Now certainly has some things that could be part of Logos 7 -- specific new content, etc. But much of the value of Logos Now is in server-hosted content: online media, temporary access to certain resources, etc. There isn't a good way to deliver that content permanently, and we're trying to avoid a situation where we commit to permanent server-based hosting and delivery (which does cost money to maintain) for one-time purchases.

Having just watched the video about Logos Now again - the video states that "At Logos, we're continually creating new features, datasets and media, and now you don't have to wait until our next major software release to get them. Get new content as soon as we create it with Logos Now"

This is why I'm still struggling to understand Logos Now and this is why people are still asking for credit vouchers etc. We expect these features in Logos 7 because your marketing materials imply this. If Logos Now is basically pre-release Logos 7 then my money is on the table. Please take it. I know Logos 7 will be so good I want to buy it. I know from previous years that the price of the base packages is roughly set to varying budgets. I would most likely buy gold. Let's go, sell it to me. Pre-order done! Please sell me Logos 7 today!

I don't want to rent and try before I buy though - that just costs extra. Now if what you are saying is early access costs more. I can understand and respect this although your marketing message has always been buy early for the best discounts.

It seem's that maybe Logos Now is developing into something else though? A product that will always be aimed as a bolt on and not part of the base package? That's a different prospect.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 15 2015 11:23 PM

My dear Brother John, 

Thanks for your sober expressions. I have much respect for your passion and position. Being heard is one thing, getting what you want or need is another. Some of FL's marketing tactics has annoyed others over the years. Perhaps a review of perception is in order by FL Promoters.

In light of you review of FL's "marketing message" and "bolt on": "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." Regardless, whatever hearing, understanding or respect you have received, since you started dealings with FL, be thankful. IMOP, fifty percent (50%) of something is better than a hundred (100%) of nothing.

Quote

Posts 3013
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 23 2015 7:28 PM

John Goodman:
It seem's that maybe Logos Now is developing into something else though? A product that will always be aimed as a bolt on and not part of the base package? That's a different prospect.

It looks like Logos/Verbum Now contains two-and-a-half basic parts.

1. Resources and features that directly require sustained costs on FL's part that will never be in a base package (e.g., images hosted online).

2. Resources and features that will be available in the next set of base packages. A recently produced interlinear comes to mind.

2.5. Resources and features that may or may not be available in the next set of base packages; FL isn't sure yet.

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2015 12:11 PM

Let's get a Logos 6 or a Logos 7 where the features that we are supposed to have, actually works.Too long we are told things are going to be fixed which actually aren't!!! Or it would be nice to be told up front by Logos things that have not worked from the beginning are not. Either way, it would be nice!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2015 12:46 PM

Bootjack:

Let's get a Logos 6 or a Logos 7 where the features that we are supposed to have, actually works.Too long we are told things are going to be fixed which actually aren't!!! Or it would be nice to be told up front by Logos things that have not worked from the beginning are not. Either way, it would be nice!

Do you have some specific examples of unfixed bugs you'd like to bring to Faithlife's attention? Sometimes we can affect their prioritization.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2015 5:56 PM

Charles McNeil:
Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)? 

Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.

Charles McNeil:
Will the field testers (subscribers) receive credit when they buy Logos 7?

It's impossible to predict the future, and I don't know what we will do in every scenario. But I can tell you that the existing dynamic pricing is complicated, confusing, and difficult to administer, and it's an apples to apples comparison. Subscription products change in configuration, people own them for varying lengths of time and thus have differing levels of investment, etc. We very much want to avoid any type of credit assignment between subscription and purchased products, because it'll be impossible to be clear, let alone fair, to all the users with the incredible permutations of things owned, length of subscription, price of subscription, etc. And it'll be truly impossible to explain/justify/document for the rights holders involved.

Logos Now is the 'dynamic price' for Logos Cloud. The reason we have Logos Now is to avoid the situation John is concerned about: you own 80% of what's in a Cloud subscription, and don't want to pay twice. Great -- that's why we offer Logos Now. It's the 'dynamic price' version of Logos Cloud that doesn't make you re-purchase anything in Cloud.

Yes, there may be a Cloud configuration that's a great deal, and has some things you don't have, but lots you already do. But it's impossible to figure a fair way to allocate your years of full-purchase prices against the value of a portion of a may-change-every-month subscription bundle, and to accurately calculate royalties, etc. 

Charles McNeil:
When it comes to building "Product X", who drives the train? Faithlife Executives? the customers? or the demands from an unknown source? 

I'm not sure what you mean. How do we decide what product to build? It's a mix of what you ask for and what we want to make and what experience tells us we can sell. (I think that's the same answer for most businesses.)

Charles McNeil:
What happened to old saying, "He that supplies the loot control the route?"  A time window of when L7  will be rolled may prove to be helpful many.

I think that expression got pushed into obscurity by the more popular 'He who controls the gold makes the rules', because of the disagreement over root / rowt pronunciation, which risks defanging your version by killing the rhyme. :-)

There is no L7 timeline yet. But it's a good guess that we won't go longer than 2 years (the time between 5 and 6) and also a good guess we won't go less than one year (because that's pretty fast and stuff takes time).

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