Managing Two Licenses

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This post has 28 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Feb 10 2010 4:40 AM

Having read the licensing restrictions, when recently upgrading my Scholars Silver to v4 I also bought a second Logos4 package (Bible Study) to run on a second laptop, primarily for my wife.  I'm just wondering if the licensing gubbins will be able to differentiate between my two systems - the Scholars Silver on my main PC (with several additional book sets bought separately) and the Bible Study version on the laptop.

I'm still waiting for the DVD to arrive (three weeks and counting) and don't want to violate the license - it's very strict in not allowing my wife to use the copy on my PC to prepare her Sunday School material; the BS version seems to have all the books she'll need - I don't want the first update going ahead and downloading all the extra material on my license (or for the software to refer her to books she doesn't have).

 

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 4:58 AM

Stephen Coles:
.  I'm just wondering if the licensing gubbins will be able to differentiate between my two systems - the Scholars Silver on my main PC (with several additional book sets bought separately) and the Bible Study version on the laptop.

Stephen,

Not to worry, L4's licensing is tied to the logos login used, and keeps the installations separate.  Here are a few scenarios.

  1. As you've done you have two separate installs on two separate machines.  She logs into the laptop using her ID and you login to the other system using your ID, the installations are as separate as yours and mine.
  2. You put two windows log in accounts on a computer, yours and hers.  Then you install the Bible study library under her username, leaving your scholars silver package on your name.  She is able to log in and use the computer under her own log in, and with her own Logos id without ever touching your install.  The installations are as separate as yours and mine.
  3. She sits down at your computer using your windows log in and CTRL+CLICK's the Logos icon for your install, which brings up the login dialog.  If she logs in with her ID, L4 will acquire the licensing and books for her Bible Study library and she can run it.  Later when you repeat the procedure (CTRL+Click the Logos icon) and log in using your own ID, the licensing and books of your own library should be ready to go.  I'm not sure in this scenario how separate the accounts and data are in terms of storage space, but since the licensing is tied to the user's Logos ID, Even though you're using one installation, the separate ID's keep it all separate (and legal).

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 5:33 AM

Stephen Coles:
I'm just wondering if the licensing gubbins will be able to differentiate between my two systems - the Scholars Silver on my main PC (with several additional book sets bought separately) and the Bible Study version on the laptop.

The licensing gubbins will not distinguish "my two systems" unless you have two separate SignIn ID's. You need to ring Support to arrange another ID  and credit the Bible Study version to that ID.

Dave
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Posts 8
Ken Martinez | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 8:05 AM

Stephen

Bob Pritchet has a post on the 'spirit of law' when it comes to the licensing agreement.  I think you will find it helpful.  I'm new to the forums and don't know how to embed a link to it but if found it by entering 'Bob Pritchet license agreement' in the search box.  Maybe someone else that knows how to embed forum links can provide it.

Hope this helps

 

Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 8:51 AM

Thanks to all who have replied so quickly - all answers have contributed to a solution. 

Having got my Logos4 Silver version installed and running, I've seen it installs in a much more convenient form than version 3 - all under one directory.  Having backed that up to my backup drive, I thought to see if I could then use that to avoid another overnight download to get it on my own laptop).  I copied the backup files to the same location on my laptop, then ran the logos4 installation programme on it - that finished in a couple of minutes.  All told, the laptop installation took under half an hour and I have Logos4 running on both - for me, as a single use under my license.

I have two options now.  One is to get a second user ID for my wife and install the Bible Study copy on her PC for her use or, alternatively, install a further copy of Silver (as above) onto her laptop and leave the Bible Study version on the shelf (once it arrives).

Reading the "Bob Pritchet" thread referenced by Ken, it looks like my literal reading of the EULA may have been stricter than I feared and is not meant to stop informal, occasional family use (providing husband and wife, say, are not both full-time pastors) - I'm a lay preacher doing occasional pulpit supply and my wife teaches at her church Sunday School.  One writer in the Bob Pritchet thread actually suggested, for similar cases, to buy a second license of a cheaper version to acknowledge the occasional multiple user - and nobody seems to have responded to contradict the suggestion.

I think my first option is the most honest so, if the Bible Study DVD arrives soon, and Logos respond to a query for a separate user ID for my wife, then I'll install it for her.  However, if the DVD spends too much more time in the post, then I may go for my second option - it seems to meet the intent of the EULA and I will have tried (and I will also have paid for a second license for most of the books she'll use, anyway).

Thanks again for all your replies.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 9:09 AM

Stephen, I appreciate your integrity in this process brother.

Stephen Coles:
not meant to stop informal, occasional family use (providing husband and wife
If you decide to share with your wife, here are a few practical items you should be aware of  http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11292/88700.aspx#88700

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Posts 1961
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 7:29 PM

Stephen


I find this thread interesting...and confusing.  Recently, we have learned here http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11152/88337.aspx#88337 that if your wife lives at home with you, then you only need one license.  Bob seems to have posted similar sentiments, making a distinction between family that is just family and family where husband and wife use Logos for professional jobs http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265 .

I may have misunderstood the post, but I do think there seems to be a difference between what the license agreement says and what Bob's intent for the agreement to mean.  At any rate, it does seem that an interpretation of the agreement means that Stephen is correct that each family member that wants to use the program to study the Bible needs to have their own license. That means a father who might spend $6000 or more dollars on the program, cannot share it with his sons, daughters or wife who reside in the same house, and if another family member wants to study the Bible they either have to buy a limited edition of the program and not have access to all books that another family member has, or pay again the $6000 or more dollars in order to use the same books in the same house to further their interest in the Word of God.

This is why I have come to understand that Logos is not the library to get if you want a digital library to replace physical library in the home.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 11:58 PM

MarkSwaim:
This is why I have come to understand that Logos is not the library to get if you want a digital library to replace physical library in the home.

L4 forces you to decide how much you want to share your library with the family, because the licence resides with you. If you don't mind them upsetting your settings and documents then you allow them to use it. Otherwise you get another ID and licence and let them use that. But you would purchase a subset that is useful to them. Sure it won't replace the convenience of sharing a physical library in the home but how much would an equivalent physical library cost you? Have you got $11, 000 to replace Silver ($1 000) or $19, 000 to replace Platinum ($1690)? Even if you figured that the useful content is one half that cost have you got the physical space?

Starting with your premise, which is going to be a subset of those libraries that you can keep in your physical library, what quality of sharing does it actually provide when you can readily expand (upgrade) a digital library for about one fifth (1/5) the cost and be able to use every resource for preparation or research.

I understand that L4 does not provide the flexibility of sharing that L3 provides but I don't agree that a physical library is a viable alternative.

Dave
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Posts 1961
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 5:31 AM

Dave Hooton:
I understand that L4 does not provide the flexibility of sharing that L3 provides but I don't agree that a physical library is a viable alternative

Hi Dave

I agree with this.  But it was not what I meant by my post.  I need a digital library to replace my physical library because of the work we do in Poland and the difficulty of transporting physical books.  So years ago I went with Logos and have accumulated a huge and great library.  I want those who live in my house to have access to it as they would with physical books. I want Polish brothers or sisters to be able to use my computer from time to time to access material they need  from my library.  I would like L4 to reside on 2-3 computers in my house and perhaps more in my house as computers become more and more a household item.  That way, any family member can use the program whenever they want (which wont be much).  I would like to be able to download a book to an e-reader or other device from time to time so a family member can read it (and it looks like this ability is coming eventually).  And when I die, I would like my investment to be transferred for a minimal fee to a family member. 

If these things are not possible in Logos (and according to my understanding of the agreement it is not), then Logos is perfect.  But if this is not possible, then there are other digital libraries (not as good as Logos by any means) which would serve these needs better and would be a viable alternative to physical books (such as a pdf library).

 By the way, Dave, there have been many helpful people on this forum, but I must say that over the years, you have helped me out the most and for that, i am very grateful.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2010 6:58 PM

MarkSwaim:
I would like L4 to reside on 2-3 computers in my house and perhaps more in my house as computers become more and more a household item.  That way, any family member can use the program whenever they want (which wont be much). 

Mark,  I did get the wrong impression and am grateful for your explanation. The number of computers is irrelevant provided you are the prime user of each computer and the L4 installed therein. The judgement call wrt the EULA (licence agreement) is for whom are you procuring the computer and installing the software, and Stephen's approach is admirable because it allays any doubts.

Dave
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Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 2:24 AM

Having had a bit longer to play with Logos4 on my PC and laptop, and finding I'm warming to the idea of greater synchronisation with the web, plan A (separate copy for my wife) definitely seems the best option.  Changes made on my PC are echo'd to my laptop, and vice versa.  Plan B would likely have led to frustration (and, possibly, arguments)!

Support are now setting up a new account for my wife and sending out a new DVD unlocked for her.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 3:10 AM

I have spoken on this topic elsewhere, but old threads become stale threads, so I will briefly repeat.

I understand the worry associated with digital resources and the way they can be abused.  I also feel that EULA's can return the favor by being almost obscenely abusive and restrictive.  I think it is bordering on criminal that I have spent multiple thousands of dollars on multi-volume resources whose very existences are coupled with the concept of being designed with multiple usership in mind, and yet I can't let my son or daughter access and take notes (or at the very least not alter my notes) without being considered an "offender".  I find that to be absurd.

For a point of reference, if an encyclopedia salesman of 30 years ago sat at a mother's kitchen table and said to her, "Yes, ma'am, you will need to buy a seperate set of encyclopedias for each of your five children," the frying pan-wielding mother would probably have chased the wretch straight out the front door, and rightfully so.  It's an idea that is (sorry for the repetition, but my usually adequate vocabulary is coming up short) ABSURD on its face.

But for some bizarre reason...not anymore!  For reasons beyond my comprehension charging a family for 2, 3, or 4 encyclopedias is...my fingers are practically choking on the keys as I type this...normal business practice.  When people ask me about Logos, and they do frequently because I teach from the program itself, don't think for a second that that little tidbit of info isn't in the "publicity package".

That said, I would be far less bothered by this whole ridiculous situation if the entire stable of Logos offerings were priced with this oppressive EULA condition as a major consideration.  I can accept the fact that digital resources require certain restrictions in consideration of their "copyable" nature IF there is a concomitant reduction in price (which would have to be a SIGNIFICANT reduction) that rightfully--and I do mean RIGHTFULLY--mitigates the (I use the word again) absurd notion that I am expected to buy multiple copies of resources that since at least the time of Voltaire have had the concept of multiple usership as a fundamental notion of their existence.

Okay, I think I've got that out of my system...at least for the next few minutes...

Posts 1961
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 6:23 AM

David Paul:
For reasons beyond my comprehension charging a family for 2, 3, or 4 encyclopedias is...my fingers are practically choking on the keys as I type this...normal business practice.  When people ask me about Logos, and they do frequently because I teach from the program itself, don't think for a second that that little tidbit of info isn't in the "publicity package".

Well this is my critic as well.  When people ask, I tell them L4 is the best thing out there...and if you are a professional or have lots of money and dont care to see your investment go up in smoke after you die, then it is the best option.  But if you are looking for something for the whole family to use and benefit from, this is not the option because the restrictions are very tight and to share it would be costly.

I have at the moment in my home, 3 computers. One for me, one for the wife and one for the children.  In the future, I expect to have 5 computers in the home as we have 6 children and we home school.  I would like to install L4 on all the computers for each family member to enjoy.  I dont worry about shared notes or anything like that.  The settings can be my settings.  The computers are not set up for individual users...each computer is set up with my settings.  Why is the agreement written so that I cannot have a family license of this type or as some programs do...you can buy a program  that is allowed to be set up on 3 or 5 computers

Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:18 PM

I can see both sides of the argument.  Printed books can be passed around and passed on but, in general, only one person can use a book at a time.  Logos CAN be installed on multiple PCs and used by several folk concurrently; if they stay in offline mode they shouldn't even interfere with each others work.  The software is actually restricted a lot less than a lot of other applications and Logos rely on users playing fair. 

The other thread referenced above discusses the principles and recognises there will never be a form of words that addresses all situations.  Basically, there's little concern over a wife and school-age children sharing - the concern comes in when husband and wife are both paid pastors or teachers, or the children are actually adults.

Remember, if you want to share like a printed book, you can still buy the printed books - only your library will cost you a lot more than two or three extra Logos licenses.

Overall, whilst it would be nice to pay a small license fee and share the software with everyone in our family, I doubt Logos would be in business to supply something of the quality we have.

Posts 4
Garnet R. Chaney | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 7:51 AM

Here is an idea.....

Create a central PC in your home with a complete install of your Logos 4. Have this computer accessible via "Remote Desktop" to the other PCs in your home. Have a single login account that everyone shares. One person at a time can login to use the resources on that computer.

Many EULAs have forgotten the whole idea of "Use it like a book", or they try to claim that the whole collection is a "single" book.

I bought a 60 page per minute duplex departmental level scanner to digitize books on. I have to find a physical copy of a book, and then I have to remove the binding, and take time to run the scan through OCR software. But everytime I run into some overly restrictive digital book "digital rights management" solution, or lose access to a digital book I've bought, I am sure glad I have that scanner and the freedom to create a non-DRM PDF that I can freely share between all the machines that I own.  Ditto my music collection, and the DRM-free MP3's I am happy to pay for so that I can freely share them to between on whatever my machine of the day is.....

As long as I obtained a real copy of the copyrighted work, I have a right to change it into whatever form best suits my use of that work. (Think about how a blind user is within his rights to create an audio or braille version of a printed book.)  The copyright owner, however, has the right to control the distribution of the changed form of their work, as a changed form might reflect poorly on the author (think transcription errors, or OCR errors).  So basically, as long as I keep my original copy, I can personally use my changed forms of the work however I want. But I shouldn't think I can loan out those different representations.

We're fooling ourselves to some degree with the digital copies of many of these works, especially digital copies that depend on a particular vendors software for access.

Because of updates in operating systems, Libronix 3 is less than useful these days. Without an upgrade to Logos 4, I am threatened with loss of access to the most important collection of books I have, many of which are out of copyright for the originals.  So I sometimes sit during sermons, mechanically cutting and pasting text out of Libronix, and preparing a minimally formatted HTML file for the book.

The other possibility to maintain an old version of Libronix/Logos is to create a VMWARE virtual machine with a copy of Libronix/Logos, and install all your books into that.  Then you have a machine image you can carry forward to future computers that will give you access to all your books on an OS that Libronix/Logos ran well on.  I actually did that on a previous laptop because it is a lot easier to backup the virtual machine and carry it between machines and hardware upgrades, than reinstalling Libronix.    I've put off the obsolescence by buying Logos 4, and will now get access on some new devices.  But someday I may want to consider creating a virtual machine for L4.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 8:25 AM

Hi Garnet

Garnet R. Chaney:
Create a central PC in your home with a complete install of your Logos 4. Have this computer accessible via "Remote Desktop" to the other PCs in your home. Have a single login account that everyone shares. One person at a time can login to use the resources on that computer.

I don't claim to fully understand the licencing rules here but I think that this may or may not be within the spirit of the EULA, all depending on the usage each individual makes of the resources.

If you are the main and registered user and you are using this mechanism to make the software and resources available to others within your family for occasional reference then I think it's ok.

If, however, there were two people in a household who were both "professional users" - for example preacher and college lecturer - and using this installation of Logos for their work then it would be outside of what is granted within the EULA.

I'm not an expert but just thought I would flag this distinction based on my understanding of how we are asked to use this software.

Graham 

 

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 8:56 AM

Here is the definitive Bob-post on licensing.

I think the licensing issue would challenge that "everyone" can use the software through remote desktop.  That's likely not in compliance, although in some cases it might be (for example if "everyone" is Bob and Jane, who use the same email address, account on the computer, etc.). This is explained by Bob.

As a note, because of the licensing definition, if "everyone" does use Logos in a remote desktop, you will quickly find the software doesn't support that well - nor is it intended to. Layouts, Notes, Favorites, History, Reading Plans, Prayer Lists, Collections, and more can easily be stepped on by one user doing things after another user. It's really a "single user" license with the flexibility that a user may play with Logos on quite a few devices (computers, mobile, etc.), and that some "users" are actually two or more physical people whose usage mimics a single user because of their infrequent/casual use.

Bob's post explains it well.

Posts 2413
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 11:05 AM

A) the resources are worth what we pay as seen by “list price”.
B) But as seen a different way: Example:
Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (6  Vol) $269.95 not in any package  List $600 or so (?)
Anchor Yale Bible (AYB) (83 vols.)    $1,899.95 
not in any package  List $3,985
Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library (29 vols.) $999.95 
not in any package  LIST $1,290.50
Quote from prior post “”Have you got $11, 000 [list price paper] to replace Silver ($1 000) [logos Price] or $19, 000 to replace Platinum ($1690)?”” With [comments added]
If every resource cost 10% of list – that is if the Anchor Yale sets cost 60, 390, and 130 then your argument would hold water but it is often not the base set but the additions that make Logos 4 so useful. 
[Question: Did Anchor Yale expect to sell many paper sets to individuals or to libraries with many members?  With 300 members (a small school?) the price is only 19.59 per each member [the check was for the full 5,875.50] (logos price is 3,169.85 per user)]

For paper there are printing and storage and shipping cost. For Logos books there is tagging, etc.  And the pricing debate continues.

Example: If Logos says 3 computers some legitimate person with 4 gets hurt and someone else has a whole school using one copy of Logos     As Logos says one user the wife and kids (that are only looking up verses and using simple commentaries) get left out.

Example: Barnes' Notes on the Old and New Testaments (26 vols.) Is now $119.95 . It sold on CP for what $30?  The way that CP works is that price pays for the total development cost.  Every copy sold after that seems to be PURE PROFIT.  The list price is some $600.  What is a fair price?  30?   120?   600?   Free?

There are no simple answers

Posts 245
BriM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 11:39 AM

It would be nice to have the ability to "loan" a resource to another Logos user for a period of time. Whilst the other user has it then obviously I wouldn't be able to acces it - just the same as a book. After a week or so, it would automatically come back to the "owner" of the license.

I've heard that other reader software does this and it would help to spread the word about Logos. Even if the circle of people one could loan to were restricted to family members, that would be a help.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2011 3:18 PM

Garnet R. Chaney:
Here is an idea.....  Create a central PC in your home with a complete install of your Logos 4. Have this computer accessible via "Remote Desktop" to the other PCs in your home. Have a single login account that everyone shares. One person at a time can login to use the resources on that computer.
  If we assume you are talking about complying with Bob Pritchett's liberal application of the  EULA, you are suggesting giving your kids remote desktop access to the server PC. I have 13 kids and can highly recommend you do not do that. Any changes made to an account will remain, until the next changes are made. Favorite Bibles, notes, and layouts are all vulnerable to any changes made by logged-in users. They can order new resources with your default credit card, cancel your Pre-Pubs or Community Pricing orders. They can even change the email & password. Posts to the forums in your name is another danger.

If we assume you are suggesting allowing your whole church or Bible college to access your single license it is in direct violation of the letter and spirit of the EULA. I have 6000+ books in my library today. If I had received everything for free and others also made regular practice of this method, there would be no Logos and only a couple dozen forum posters instead of 50,000+.

Garnet R. Chaney:
Many EULAs have forgotten the whole idea of "Use it like a book",
If Logos books were only ebooks that offered nothing more than a reading experience, I'd say "use it like a book" But it is more like a fine automobile;

     Are you really going to let your 15 year old drive your Jag in the snow?

Garnet R. Chaney:
or they try to claim that the whole collection is a "single" book.
  I have 84 third party activations and 127 Logos unlocks A few of those licenses are for a single book while other licenses may cover 3~84 titles. One license covers 2010 titles. I am free to sell a license but not free to part and parcel portions of a license to others.

Bob Pritchett implemented a visionary licensing scheme where you do have free use of your resources on multiple devices without paying for them multiple times. You can buy one license and access your Logos 4 library on PCs & Macs, desktops & laptops & tablets, iPads & iPhones & iPods, Android devices and whatever future platform Logos ports to. You can even run Libronix 3 side-by-side with Logos 4. The Personal Book Tool and Vyrso offerings will bring many more titles to your library.
Garnet R. Chaney:
We're fooling ourselves to some degree with the digital copies of many of these works, especially digital copies that depend on a particular vendors software for access.
We are also fooling ourselves if we think we can take any of our stuff with us when we die. I hope to use Logos to lay up treasure in Heaven. A big screen TV or golf clubs are a little harder to apply towards that end.

You can still buy cheap hardware that runs Windows XP and Libronix 3. Stock up on some and enjoy Libronix 3 forever. Computer 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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