Morph Search Mayhem...is this a glitch?

Page 1 of 1 (12 items)
This post has 11 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 5092
David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Aug 22 2015 8:21 PM

I don't use morph search very often, so maybe I'm expecting more than I ought. But If I do a morph search in Hebrew, shouldn't it return ONLY hits that match the exact spelling of a word?

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, 64gb 3600 RAM, 2tb m.2 EVO Pro Plus SSD (x2), 12tb Seagate Barracuda (x2)...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 30941
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 22 2015 8:27 PM

Can we have a screen shot? In a morph search you define the morphological qualities you want ... and perhaps limit it to a certain lemma. What are you getting that seems odd?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5092
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2015 9:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

Can we have a screen shot? In a morph search you define the morphological qualities you want ... and perhaps limit it to a certain lemma. What are you getting that seems odd?

This is the LHI for Deut. 3:21...

Notice the waaw manifested as a shuuruuq. I did a morph search on this word and got the following return...

So, I highlighted Deut. 3:21 green to show that is where I began my search of this morphology. I also highlighted the first couple of hits from Exo. 17:9-10 yellow to correspond with the data in the pic below.



Notice that the top row, which is the Biblical text, has a kubhuuts rather than the shuuruuq. So I want to know why it was given as a return in my morph search? Now, I have noticed that the "supposedly" underlying lemma here is the same morphology that I searched on, but that derives a second question I have about this: why is that the case?

My whole point in doing this search is to separate out the uses of the shuuruuq in the Bible text from the uses of the kubhuuts. My understanding is that the morphology of the Deut. 3 spelling is only found twice in Tanakh. So back to my two questions.

1) Why aren't these separated out? Isn't that exactly what a morph search is supposed to do?
2) Why is the shuuruuq (green) spelling considered the lemma when it is barely even represented compared to hundreds of examples of the kubhuuts (yellow) spelling, which is about 100X more prevalent in the Bible text?

I was really hoping morph search would step up for me in this situation, because this is the kind of rare situation where I need to use it. It didn't...and so instead of saving me time, I've spent way too much time making screen shots and laying out this situation. Is this a glitch? Or is this not what morph is supposed to do?

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, 64gb 3600 RAM, 2tb m.2 EVO Pro Plus SSD (x2), 12tb Seagate Barracuda (x2)...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2015 11:02 PM

David Paul:
My whole point in doing this search is to separate out the uses of the shuuruuq in the Bible text from the uses of the kubhuuts. My understanding is that the morphology of the Deut. 3 spelling is only found twice in Tanakh.

Removing lemma: from Morph Search finds Deut 3.21 and Judg 2:7

By the way, Logos Support has Hebrew Regular Expressions => https://www.logos.com/support/lbs/HebrewRegularExpressions

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 30941
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 2:33 PM

I don't know what happens when you request a morph search but give no morphological search argument (i.e. @ search term). I'll let someone more knowledgeable handle this.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5092
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 4:28 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Removing lemma: from Morph Search finds Deut 3.21 and Judg 2:7

Good to know. Thanks.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, 64gb 3600 RAM, 2tb m.2 EVO Pro Plus SSD (x2), 12tb Seagate Barracuda (x2)...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 5092
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 4:39 PM

I'd still like to know why the 2 example Hebrew spelling is considered to be the lemma rather than the 200+ example spelling. Is it because the full spelling is given preeminence over the defective spelling?

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, 64gb 3600 RAM, 2tb m.2 EVO Pro Plus SSD (x2), 12tb Seagate Barracuda (x2)...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 26233
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 5:24 PM

The manuscript search does not match marks --> same as [match nomarks]יְהוֹשׁ֣וּעַ

If you wanted to be really precise --->  [match marks]יְהוֹשׁ֣וּעַ gives only Deut 3:21

See https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands for more. This does not apply to a lemma search, as the match is always exact.

EDIT: I'm using the BHW 4.2 in case there is a difference

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 26233
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 5:31 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

By the way, Logos Support has Hebrew Regular Expressions => https://www.logos.com/support/lbs/HebrewRegularExpressions

This applies to Logos 3 (Libronix). My previous post shows the 'Match' expressions for Logos 5/6, and there are no RegExpr.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 26233
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2015 5:44 PM

David Paul:
I'd still like to know why the 2 example Hebrew spelling is considered to be the lemma rather than the 200+ example spelling.

I don't know, but the (lemma) result would be the same whichever spelling was adopted

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 53
LogosEmployee
Michael Meiser (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2015 12:59 PM

David Paul:

I'd still like to know why the 2 example Hebrew spelling is considered to be the lemma rather than the 200+ example spelling. Is it because the full spelling is given preeminence over the defective spelling?

The primary reason this spelling is treated as the lemma in Logos is because Logos Hebrew morphology's lemma data primarily follows the organizational methodology of HALOT. So I blame them. ;-)

As per other responses in this thread, the general rules of thumb when doing morphology searches in Hebrew in Logos are as follows:

1) When searching for a lemma, use "lemma:" followed by the lemma for the Hebrew word. This will find all spellings of the same lemma.

2) When searching for an exact spelling with consonants only, simply copy and paste the word, or simply type the consonants into the search bar. Logos morph search by default ignores vowel points when searching in Hebrew.

3) When searching for an exact spelling with consonants and vowels, use the [match vowels] command before your search term. This overrides the default Logos search behavior. I personally would like to see a "Match Vowels" option that we can check in the search panel menu for this rather than needing to type extra syntax in the search bar. But that may be just me. =)

I hope this helps to disambiguate a bit further.

Free Logos Tutorials on YouTube: Digital Bible Study Made Easy

Posts 5092
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 7 2017 11:56 PM

Michael Meiser:

The primary reason this spelling is treated as the lemma in Logos is because Logos Hebrew morphology's lemma data primarily follows the organizational methodology of HALOT. So I blame them. ;-)

Well, so much for George's googly-eyed insistence regarding HALOT's untainted superiority! I have never been much of a fan of it's format or it's choices...this adds to my disenchantment.

I do appreciate the advice and insight, Dave & Michael.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, 64gb 3600 RAM, 2tb m.2 EVO Pro Plus SSD (x2), 12tb Seagate Barracuda (x2)...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Page 1 of 1 (12 items) | RSS