Can Logos Make Faster Software?

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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 22 2015 6:52 AM

I know that Faithlife/Logos made the decision several years ago to move to a new Windows-based platform (WPF) that is graphically intensive and really slow on many systems with slower processors and hard disks.  

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?  

Qt would be a good choice as it is cross-platform and very fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)  Scrivener is Qt based and runs fast on all of my systems.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 8:07 AM

The best thing you can do is install an SSD, I don't consider Logos to be slow on my current machines.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:07 AM

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded. I do know there are faster computers but mine is fairly speedy and having a Bible APP take that long to load is frustrating, Accordance loads in under 5 seconds, Olivetree in less than half that time. I am aware that Logos/Verbum has a lot of bells a whistles that are not on the other two and my slow internet connection may contribute to Verbum's slow start, but by any standard of software loading beyond games Logos software is slower to start up and doing similar searches and greek/hebrew language tasks it is slower than the above two mentioned software. Info pane/resource guide populates far quicker than a passage guide, although I will say that FL PG is more robust than that others but even when pared down to make them quite equal FL apps loose out. I find FL apps an acceptable speed most of the time, but I would never call them speedy, A tortoise may be a rocket fast animal compared to a snail (i.e. book s vs computer's), but it's mean it is fast compared to other quadrupeds.

-Dan

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:13 AM

Hi Tony. I'm sure we'd all appreciate faster software. There are things you can do to speed Logos up on your system as abondservant suggests.

However, I'm not sure if moving to Qt will make much of a change. I don't think it's the actual UI that's causing the slowness. I think it's the back-end processing that slows things down the most. One of the reasons it may look like it's the front end is that the two parts of the system (UI & back end) don't appear to be fully independent (to be fair, it seems to have gotten better over the years). In other words, if they magically switched to Qt, I think you'd have the same experience today.

The biggest improvements they can make are: 1. continue to decouple ui and processing so that ui is always responsive (users will think it's fast even if it's not), 2. continue to rewrite critical paths in c++ as they've started doing, 3. revisit algorithms used for data structures and search.

If someone were to make a cross-platform application today, Qt would be an excellent place to start. But Logos started as Windows only, so it makes good business sense to keep the C# code they've invested in and tweak a few things to make it work on Mac.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:18 AM

abondservant:

The best thing you can do is install an SSD, I don't consider Logos to be slow on my current machines.

Same here. Before installing SSDs Logos would run very slowly but now I hardly notice any speed challenges.

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Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:34 AM

William Gabriel:

However, I'm not sure if moving to Qt will make much of a change. I don't think it's the actual UI that's causing the slowness. I think it's the back-end processing that slows things down the most.

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. Smile

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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:43 AM

But don't the competing programs also have the same types of processes?  Also, how would that affect boot up speed? 

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 12:11 PM

I was sitting here thinking "I know how fast mine starts. It was under 10 seconds when 6 was released. It was WAYYYYY faster than 5.

Today I'm sitting here after 2:40 seconds and still waiting for it to finish coming up.

This MAY be in part due to my ISP doing work on the lines today... fwiw - 3:04 now, and still it hasn't come up.

Going to have to tell it to work offline and see how that goes next. Or disable my internet connection and test again.

3:40 now, and still it hasn't loaded.

4:00 and nothing.

4:30 still waiting. OK this is getting ridiculous.

5:00 I give up, I'm going to reboot my pc, disable my network connection and try again.

After rebooting - with nothing running it took only 12.9 seconds to start Logos.

Might think about what else is running when you do your time tests :) the difference was substantial for me.

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 12:33 PM

And if you're willing to settle for 80-85% of SSD performance at only 20% of the cost, consider a hybrid disk drive. (I moved from a hybrid to an SSD & if I'd known I'd only get an additional 15% performance on the SSD, I'd have stuck with the hybrid drive.)

Here's a link to some prices that are pretty compelling: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ahybrid+disk+drive&keywords=hybrid+disk+drive&ie=UTF8&qid=1442949833

And here's a link to support for the performance numbers I quoted: http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/detail-page/sc_b00691wmjg-01chart_lg.jpg 

FWIW, I've installed both h/d drive & SSD, & by far it's easier to install an H/D--which the hybrid drive appears to be, to the computer (no requirement to mess with boot order or anything else in the BIOS, as there is with SSD install).

Lastly, whatever h/d drive you have now will fit nicely into a $20 case as a USB connected mass storage drive, after installation.

Blessings on whatever you decide!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 2:02 PM

Tony Thomas:
I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?  

Logos is a huge, complex programme — far more powerful than any of its competitors. I have an i7 processor with SSD. Adobe Photoshop takes around 22s to launch to a blank starting workspace (15s to do so a second time). That's almost identical with the speed it takes my to launch Logos, and is a fairer comparison IMO.

Moving to a lighter framework is all well and good, but it means that Logos developers will have to spend more time and money coding features that come for free in a large framework like WPF and .NET. I'm sure the could move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines - but they could only do so by removing the features that makes Logos the leader in Biblical studies.

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 2:25 PM

Dan Francis:

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded.  ......

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive,  I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

Steve

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 6:08 PM

Logos has continually improved. It's way snappier than in Logos 4. I frankly don't care anymore if my main machine still has a 5400 RPM drive. I do recommend an SSD or at least a hybrid if you are buying a new computer, but I find L6 to be very good as long as you have a decent CPU and enough RAM. I expect the next generation will be even better.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 7:08 PM

Tony Thomas:

I know that Faithlife/Logos made the decision several years ago to move to a new Windows-based platform (WPF) that is graphically intensive and really slow on many systems with slower processors and hard disks.  

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?  

Qt would be a good choice as it is cross-platform and very fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)  Scrivener is Qt based and runs fast on all of my systems.

I don't know what hardware you have, but even on my laptop, which tends to be a bit slow, I don't have a problem.  On the desktop it isn't slow at all.

george
gfsomsel

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 7:44 PM

Steve:

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive,  I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

I am on satellite internet connection and am on a mac, the Mac version may take longer to load. I personally like i said am not overly concerned with the speed just saying it is no speed demon starting up. And before having a SSD it was not a tolerable speed. I suspect it is far speedier in windows and like i said if I started it up on faster internet it might be far speedier too... I did start it up this afternoon as i had my computer in a larger centre to upgrade my iPad to iOS 9, it may have well started faster, but it seemed pretty typical speed  to me, even though i was on a fast connection. And the ultra speedy OT BR is a very barebones program, it;s resource guide has many similar features to FL programs but it is really like comparing a glossary to full dictionary. 

-Dan

PS: I just turned my WiFi off and tried it again. this start up time was 30 seconds showing that probably half of my slowness is my connection speed.

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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 7:59 PM

I have a low-end laptop with a N2840 Bay Trail.  Performance is acceptable if I turn off Internet.  Accordance is much faster on that machine.  On my Desktop with a dual-core 3GHz AMD and Windows 7, Logos is much faster....

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Lankford Oxendine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2015 10:14 PM

Logos could definitely improve in the speed department but I don't believe it is a priority for FL.  It seems as if FL believes that Logos is fast enough.  I have several students/colleagues comment to me about the slowness of Logos and my reply is always the same - "if you want something faster go to a competitor because I doubt Logos is going to get faster anytime soon".

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2015 6:01 AM

Dan Francis:

Steve:

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive,  I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

I am on satellite internet connection and am on a mac, the Mac version may take longer to load. I personally like i said am not overly concerned with the speed just saying it is no speed demon starting up. And before having a SSD it was not a tolerable speed. I suspect it is far speedier in windows and like i said if I started it up on faster internet it might be far speedier too... I did start it up this afternoon as i had my computer in a larger centre to upgrade my iPad to iOS 9, it may have well started faster, but it seemed pretty typical speed  to me, even though i was on a fast connection. And the ultra speedy OT BR is a very barebones program, it;s resource guide has many similar features to FL programs but it is really like comparing a glossary to full dictionary. 

-Dan

PS: I just turned my WiFi off and tried it again. this start up time was 30 seconds showing that probably half of my slowness is my connection speed.





I may have missed where you described your machine, but 32bit/64 bit will make a difference as well.

32 bits is moving data in a wheel barrel, 64 is like a cargo ship full of shipping containers. 33 bits is twice as much data as 32, 34 is twice as much data as 33, and 4 times as much as 32 - and so forth.

The brand of processor plays a BIG role in speed right now too. Depending on how the program is coded.

Intel excells in processing data like this:
----------------------------------------

AMD excells in processing data like this:
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AMD is processing more threads of data much slower, Intel is processing single threaded data much faster. What this means is encryption, and different things when coded to take full advantage of an AMD chip is going to be MUCH faster on AMD than intel (at least in theory). BUT if its not coded to support that feature of AMD, then Intel is MUCH faster than AMD.

However Logos was coded - its quite telling that my AMD 8350 (with 32gb of ram, and an ssd) can bring logos up in 12 seconds, when others with an intel i7 (what generation was that?) brings logos up in 22-30. All in all that means Logos is quite well coded I should think. I would suspect its taking advantage of the benefits of whichever processor you are using.

Lankford Oxendine:

Logos could definitely improve in the speed department but I don't believe it is a priority for FL.  It seems as if FL believes that Logos is fast enough.  I have several students/colleagues comment to me about the slowness of Logos and my reply is always the same - "if you want something faster go to a competitor because I doubt Logos is going to get faster anytime soon".



Finally, Lankford, I feel like you might be a little overly dour in tone - you clearly don't remember the older versions of Logos. They ARE listening, and making LOTS of changes to speed things up.

I went from 45 second boot times, to boot times under 10 seconds (before the good people of the forums complained and got the home page changed - which is probably what caused the 2-3 second difference from then to now). Logos 4 - on more or less the same hardware (phenom II x6), you started it, went and got a warm beverage, checked the mail box, made a slice of toast, ate, drank, and then sat down at your computer hoping it was ready. (there may be a little creative license in there, but you get the point - it was slow.)

Logos DOES listen - especially when we people of the forums gripe. Maybe there is some room for improvement - I'm not a programmer. But they do listen to our complaints. They do adjust things, they have been making it faster. Cheer up! give them some time. it is getting better :)

By the time logos 7 is released it should be able to run on my toaster, and start faster than I can load it with bread (lets hope).


EDITED to add quotes of the intel machine specs listed:

Mark Barnes:

Tony Thomas:
I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?  

Logos is a huge, complex programme — far more powerful than any of its competitors. I have an i7 processor with SSD. Adobe Photoshop takes around 22s to launch to a blank starting workspace (15s to do so a second time). That's almost identical with the speed it takes my to launch Logos, and is a fairer comparison IMO.

Moving to a lighter framework is all well and good, but it means that Logos developers will have to spend more time and money coding features that come for free in a large framework like WPF and .NET. I'm sure the could move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines - but they could only do so by removing the features that makes Logos the leader in Biblical studies.



Dan Francis:

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded. I do know there are faster computers but mine is fairly speedy and having a Bible APP take that long to load is frustrating, Accordance loads in under 5 seconds, Olivetree in less than half that time. I am aware that Logos/Verbum has a lot of bells a whistles that are not on the other two and my slow internet connection may contribute to Verbum's slow start, but by any standard of software loading beyond games Logos software is slower to start up and doing similar searches and greek/hebrew language tasks it is slower than the above two mentioned software. Info pane/resource guide populates far quicker than a passage guide, although I will say that FL PG is more robust than that others but even when pared down to make them quite equal FL apps loose out. I find FL apps an acceptable speed most of the time, but I would never call them speedy, A tortoise may be a rocket fast animal compared to a snail (i.e. book s vs computer's), but it's mean it is fast compared to other quadrupeds.

-Dan



.

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Lankford Oxendine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2015 7:38 AM

abondservant:

Finally, Lankford, I feel like you might be a little overly dour in tone - you clearly don't remember the older versions of Logos. They ARE listening, and making LOTS of changes to speed things up.

I clearly do remember the past history of Logos.  You're right in that Logos 4 was very slow and Logos 5 made a great leap in performance but I also remember when Logos 6 was first released- it was just as slow as Logos 4 in many areas. In the following few months, FL made performance improvements to Logos 6 but it is still not a fast program.  In the last 6-8 months I don't recall any changes to Logos 6 in areas of performance.  Once the program gets fast enough, it seems as if the attention gets focused on adding new features.  Perhaps you know something about the future and Logos 7?  I would love to be proven wrong and have FL come out with an update/new version that greatly increases performance.  My school has started to investigate the option of moving to a competitor because of all the complaints concerning the slowness in Logos.  I wonder if you have recently tried any of Logos competitors?  If not, then don't, because ignorance truly is bliss.  Logos has several advantages over others (features, resources) but it is way behind in the speed department.  Any review of Logos and its competitors will reveal that.  A few months ago a video on youtube was posted comparing speed and it was not pretty for Logos.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2015 8:16 AM

To start Logos 6 on my computer the first time this morning took 15 seconds to open to a 3 window pane desktop, with passage guide open in the first window, 5 Bibles in the second window, and BDAG open in the third window.

Closed it and restart took 10 seconds.  (No doubt it could be a bit slower with a poor internet connection.)

I have Surface pro 3, i7 processor, and SSD.  I run Windows 10.  I run 64 bit windows. 

I know the Surface pro 3 is out of the price range for many.  I have been there, believe me.  But for those that can afford it, I would point out that it can run Logos 6 very fast and snappy on a great tablet / lap top machine,  and right now they Surface Pro 3 is on sale at a couple hundred dollars off, (as they prepare for the Surface Pro 4).  Logos is the only reason that I would personally invest in the Surface Pro 3, but it is well worth it to me.

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Erich-Ayumi | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2015 8:26 AM

Well i have friends that have accordance 11 and Logos 6. While the competitor is like a bullet, I noticed that Logos6 still shine in may ways. Speed was an issue when I was using a waaaay older computer. But now im on SSD, 4GB RAM, and roughly 1.3Ghz. I think it is already fairly snappy (after indexing).

I think Logos6 comparable to Photoshop. They are heavy weight softwares. But once open, it is pretty fast. Of course, speed improvement is always welcome!!! Just make sure you don't have too many windows linked.
But again, any speed improvement is WELCOME!!!

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