Not Operator

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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 6 2015 12:03 PM
I'm doing a morphological search, trying to examine whether the construction ὑμεῖς ποιεῖτε αὐτοῖς in Matthew 7:12b is using an emphatic pronoun. Its easy to find parallel uses of the nominative personal pronoun with the imperative (@RP2N BEFORE 1 WORDS @V??M2). The other part of the question is to see how often the imperative occurs without the nominative pronoun. My understanding is that there isn't a NOT operator. How would I go about that (I know I could simply search for the imperative verb and manually back out the hits I can locate with the pronoun, nonetheless, I'd like a search to confirm my work.
Thanks!
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 2:06 PM

Does "(@RP2N ANDNOT @V??M2)" do it for you?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 2:10 PM

Graham Criddle:

Does "(@RP2N ANDNOT @V??M2)" do it for you?

That isn't the same as NOT(@RP2N BEFORE 1 WORDS @V??M2), as is it will exclude occasions where @RP2N and @V??M2 occur in the same verse but not just before one another. Examples would include Matthew 6:6, 6:9, etc.

I think you'd need something like this: (@V??M2 ANDNOT @RP2N)  OR (@V??M2 BEFORE @RP2N) OR (@RP2N BEFORE 2-999 WORDS @V??M2)

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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 3:47 PM

Thanks Graham and Mark. Mark's solution yields a different answer than Accordance does with a simple NOT operator from a construct search. When I have a bit more time, I'd like to pick through and understand the differences. I sure wish Logos would drop back and either give us a graphic search engine, or at least modernize and standardize what they have. 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 4:23 PM

Mark Barnes:
(@V??M2 BEFORE @RP2N) OR (@RP2N BEFORE 2-999 WORDS @V??M2)

I was interested in this part where both Verb and Pronoun must be in the same verse and comparing it with:-

(@V??M2 AND @RP2N) ANDNOT  (@RP2N BEFORE 1 WORDS @V??M2)

Your query includes Jas 2:3 which is correctly excluded by (the nature of) my query; but it also omits Lk 10:37, Phil 2:18 & Jas 5:8. Can you see why?

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 4:34 PM

Dave Hooton:
(@V??M2 AND @RP2N) ANDNOT  (@RP2N BEFORE 1 WORDS @V??M2)

The problem with this query (and, I suspect, with the query Clint used in Accordance) is that it will exclude verses that have two occurrences of @V??M2 — one just after @V??M2, and one that is not after @V??M2.

Luke 10:37 is excluded in your query because σὺ ποίει matches the criteria.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 4:53 PM

Clint,

In your mind, how should the query handle Luke 10:37? You have "πορεύου καὶ σὺ ποίει ὁμοίως", should it include it because of πορεύου, or exclude it because of σὺ ποίει?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 6 2015 6:04 PM

Mark Barnes:
Luke 10:37 is excluded in your query because σὺ ποίει matches the criteria.

I originally thought there was an issue with the search engine, but I now see that ALL the omitted passages match the criteria; so the results just illustrate the frailty of any ANDNOT query.

Dave
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Clint Cozier:
I sure wish Logos would drop back and either give us a graphic search engine, or at least modernize and standardize what they have. 

There really is no "easy" way to run exclusionary searches like this one in Logos. Whenever I want to run something like this, I always go to a syntax search as it allows you to do everything you can do with a morph search, plus quite a bit more. This would be the closest thing to a graphical search query in Logos at present. When done right, it renders some really awesome results. (But even then, I always wonder if I am missing something)

Here is how I structured the query:

This is set up to find every clause where both a subject and verbal function exist, but the subject does not contain a second person pronoun in the nominative case and the verbal function contains a second person imperative. It also will find all the places where a verbal function exists without a subject where the verbal function contains a second person imperative. I also set the search to highlight the verb in each to make it easier to spot in the results.

I only spot checked Matthew, but it looks to accomplish exactly what you are looking for. One particular result that a morph search using proximity operators would not find is Matthew 14:28. This verse has a second person pronoun in the nominative case that precedes the second person imperative verb by only 2 words. The syntax search properly recognizes that these are members of separate clauses, thus showing a positive search result. Pretty cool if you ask me. =)

Hope this helps.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 7 2015 12:40 AM

Mike Meiser:
The syntax search properly recognizes that these are members of separate clauses, thus showing a positive search result. Pretty cool if you ask me. =)

Yes, it is.

Dave
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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 7 2015 8:01 AM

Mike,

The problem I have with a syntax search is that I'm limited to searching the New Testament. If I can use a morphological search, I can check my work against the LXX and various collections of Greek writers. I'm sure the syntax search gets a much better answer, but it works with a much smaller corpus.

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