AWS Cloud Server

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Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 5 2015 10:19 AM

I'm thinking about moving Logos to an Amazon Web Service EC2 "server in the cloud." Now just so I'm clear, this isn't for anyone else to access, it's an effort to move this off my company-owned machine into a server I control and can access from anywhere, meaning from school in the near future. What I need to estimate is the server size (processing power) and storage required. Does anyone have a comment on processing power required? And for storage required, I can't seem to find any Logos/Faithlife folder on my machine to examine for size. Where are those hidden?

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2015 12:02 PM

I have zero idea how you plan on making a desktop program work over the cloud, but the Logos is found typically in C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Logos\

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2015 12:52 PM

Great. That's what I needed. It's up and running on a virtual machine in the cloud. The problem I'm having now is that Logos crashes whenever I disconnect/reconnect the remote desktop (RDP). That was happening when I used RDP from my Chromebook into my desktop Windows machine too. I was hoping the Windows 2012R2 server in the cloud wouldn't have that problem. I have a workaround, which is to use Ericom Software's RDP solution, but it isn't free. It does offer data compression though so it's faster than Microsoft RDP. Guess I'll pay unless anyone at FL is interested in the crash I'm experiencing.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 5 2015 2:05 PM

Windows 2012R2 server would not be supported by Faithlife as Logos is not designed/intended for server environments.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 9:47 AM

Understood. I still think there's a bug, though, since RDP from Chromebook to Windows 7 Enterprise causes Logos to crash somewhere between a disconnect and reconnect.

For the record, in case anyone else wants to install to a cloud server, on AWS I used the t2.medium AMI with a 40GB EBS. After installing Chrome and Logos Gold, I have 6.7GB free. I'll repeat as noted above, Windows Server 2012R2 is not a supported platform, but it runs.

My goal here is to prepare for school. My laptop is company-owned so I'm bending the rules installing Logos on it. My device for school is a Chromebook with which I want to do a remote desktop connection either to my laptop back home or to the cloud server. Meanwhile I can also get some serious processing power from AWS at a very low cost.

This is all moot when a full web-based version of Logos becomes available.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 9:51 AM

Probably not related to your current problem but Logos needs 30GB free as per https://www.logos.com/system-requirements

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Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 9:52 AM

Yup, it had 30GB free before I installed.

Posts 2830
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 10:18 AM

Are you saying that the AWS Cloud Server replaces your local disk in the running of Logos, say your C: drive? 

If so, I can't imagine that will run well. If you do a perfmon of logical C: drive disk performance counters like Disk Reads/sec, Disk Read bytes/sec, Disk writes/sec, Disk write bytes/sec, you will see 100 writes a second, and thousands of reads per second depending on what you are doing, just from Logos.  And this would go across the ethernet to a cloud server? The difference between internet and SSD has to be huge...and we know from experience how much faster Logos runs on an SSD compared to a local hard disk.

If you are saying to program would be installed on the cloud server as well, I am pretty sure this won't work at all unless the cloud server can be virtualized to look like a local drive - and then it will just be super slow at best.

Bugs and crashes would not be surprising to me, because the access of data to a cloud vs.a local drive introduces the potential for errors and delays where the design doesn't anticipate them - it's outside the scope of the design. This is made worse by the fact Logos uses a relational database which introduces its own assumptions/errors/delays because it's assumed the data is local.

Sorry if I am way down a bunny track and you intend something else entirely - it just sounds like my fear is what you intend. If not I apologize, and maybe you can explain more clearly how it will work.

Posts 2830
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 10:20 AM

PS - if you are motivated by the need to be portable and on your own storage device, why not pick up a USB 3.0 to AHCI cable and a fast SSD disk, install Logos on it s a custom install to "D:" or whatever, with both easily able to be carried from computer to computer? I have done this and it works pretty well.

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 10:24 AM

Yep, you're down a bunny track.

This is a Windows machine running in the cloud, not just cloud storage. The operating system, processors, memory, and disk space are all in the cloud, just like a standalone machine on your desk but out there somewhere. And it is SSD.

And since it's the equivalent of a desktop machine, but doesn't have a monitor, you access it with remote desktop software. Ideally that would be Microsoft RDP because it's free, but then I have the crash issue between disconnect and reconnect.

It wouldn't be that big of a deal restarting Logos each time I connect, but I'm afraid I might lose or corrupt something when it crashes.

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 10:28 AM

My motivation is to use as good but cheap a physical machine (Chromebook) as possible and so that if it breaks or is stolen, everything I need is safely stored in the cloud. That cheap machine doesn't run Windows, so I can't install Logos, except the Android version with its severe limitations. Hence, running Logos in the cloud or at home, and accessing it remotely on the Chromebook.

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 11:01 AM

Ah! sending screen images across the net to your cheap chromebook. I see. I use LogMeIn, it works very nicely in a similar way. In fact while on business trips I have used LogMeIn to run Logos off my home laptop. It's slower because screen paints can be slow on hotel internet lines, but runs acceptably enough.

If it helps since that works - it is possible I guess - not sure why you would be having possible bugs. Good luck with it and thanks for the clarification!

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 11:47 AM

Zak Metz:

Understood. I still think there's a bug, though, since RDP from Chromebook to Windows 7 Enterprise causes Logos to crash somewhere between a disconnect and reconnect.

For the record, in case anyone else wants to install to a cloud server, on AWS I used the t2.medium AMI with a 40GB EBS. After installing Chrome and Logos Gold, I have 6.7GB free. I'll repeat as noted above, Windows Server 2012R2 is not a supported platform, but it runs.

My goal here is to prepare for school. My laptop is company-owned so I'm bending the rules installing Logos on it. My device for school is a Chromebook with which I want to do a remote desktop connection either to my laptop back home or to the cloud server. Meanwhile I can also get some serious processing power from AWS at a very low cost.

This is all moot when a full web-based version of Logos becomes available.

how do you do that?

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2015 12:12 PM

Which part, alabama24? If you want to learn about the Amazon cloud, you can just browse on over to aws.amazon.com. I'm using EC2, so you would want to read up on that. Meanwhile this is the sort of thing I do for a living, so to me it's easy and obvious. I'd be happy to help out someone else who wants to try it. Imagine not being locked into a PC, being able to upgrade processors, memory, storage anytime. Using a cheap front-end machine that you don't have to worry (much) about. That's what the cloud can do. If you're wondering how long screen transfers take, I notice no difference in response time scrolling or anything else accessing my remote server. I do have a very fast home connection, though (gigabit). Not sure how it will be from school, but I'll find out when I go register next week.

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LogosEmployee

Zak Metz:
Understood. I still think there's a bug, though, since RDP from Chromebook to Windows 7 Enterprise causes Logos to crash somewhere between a disconnect and reconnect.

We've seen this crash reported in the past. As far as we can tell, it's a crash in WPF (the Microsoft UI library we use on Windows) that we can't work around.

Since Logos 6 was intended to be installed on a personal desktop/laptop computer, not on a server for remote access, this hasn't been a high priority for us to investigate.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2015 3:45 AM

I'd be interested in your experience with this, particularly with regard to performance. Doing some back of the envelope calculations, it looks like 2 hours/day with 32Gb storage is going to cost you around $16-$19/month — possibly more for decent IOPS.* That's $192-$228/year, or up to $684 over three years, the likely lifetime of a laptop. In other words, I can't see any advantage with regard to cost unless you're only going to be using Logos occasionally. And you'll lose the ability to play video.

* I'm assuming m3.large, which is 8Gb RAM but has only 'moderate' IO.

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2015 9:59 AM

Keep in mind the server sizing is in the context of ultra high performance web server machines, not the context of "personal" computers. m3.large is probably way more power, and "moderate" I/O way more I/O than you need. I'm running the t2.medium and it's faster than my laptop which is a 2.5Ghz, 16GB, 64-bit machine. Remember that this is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Server machines are a different animal. Also your % usage is based on 100% CPU, so unless you're doing a search that takes 2 hours, you're not using it 100% and won't be charged as such.

However, I'm not sure exactly what the cost will be. I need to run it a couple months and find out. I can report back around February/March on how this actually works out. (And yes, you can set alarms so the cost doesn't exceed the most you're willing to pay).

$684 doesn't buy you much of a laptop. And when it gets stolen/broken you have to replace it. And if you want to upgrade you have to buy it, migrate your data, and sell the old one. I bought the highest-end Chromebook I could find for $350, huge screen, great speed, and it should be good for many years because it's not the one doing the work. Everything I do for school will be in the cloud. If I need an processor upgrade, I just start a new AMI and attach my storage to it and in 3 minutes I'm up and running. Or I can downgrade.

I think some of you are starting to see the value. But I'm anxious to back this up with real numbers. All I can say is that it's going to be fairly cheap, and that performance will be a step up. I'm not that great with the estimator. But I won't cry if my Chromebook is broken/stolen. I won't lose any of my "stuff."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2015 10:03 AM

I think this is very interesting and keen to see how you get on.

Please do post back when you get some numbers

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2015 10:19 AM

Zak Metz:
m3.large is probably way more power, and "moderate" I/O way more I/O than you need.

According to Cloudlook, m3.large only gives 285MB/s throughput, which is equivalent to a slow-average SSD. CPU speed is better (equivalent to 2.5GHz i7). That's good performance, but not way more than I'd need.

But I'd certainly be interested in your longer term experience with this, particularly with regard to costs (and performance).

Zak Metz:
$684 doesn't buy you much of a laptop.

No, but $684 plus the $350 you spent on your Chromebook could easily buy you a Windows laptop with 8GB RAM, a 6th Generation i7 processor and a 256GB SSD. Plus that would still be worth $200-$300 at the end of three years.

I'm old enough to remember WYSE dumb terminals. It seems strange to think that we might be heading in that direction again Smile.

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 7 2015 10:21 AM

Zak Metz:
The problem I'm having now is that Logos crashes whenever I disconnect/reconnect the remote desktop (RDP).

I think I'm right in saying that this crash only occurs under certain conditions. You may be able to determine those conditions and work around the problem (perhaps minimising before connect/disconnect?).

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