In Search Of Good Prophecy book for the Messiah

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This post has 28 Replies | 1 Follower

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Lee | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 7 2015 4:02 AM

I want a book that list good clear prophecies for the Messiah, and list the clear Fulfillment for them.

I have used google search to find prophecies but many look vague. 

What would you recommend as a Logos resource?

Also what would be a good way to search for prophecy in regard to Christ Jesus or Messiah, in the Bible using Logos?

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 5:39 PM

More erudite forum bodies or better buddies will better respond to this excellent question than I. Spurred by your question I initiated my own quest for an answer. Unfortunately I found no exhaustive appearing tome in FL. So, I went to my next check down (it's Sunday night--football you know) Amazon and I found a worthy looking candidate from the prolific writer on bible topics, Herbert Lockyer All The Messianic Prophecies, I also snagged Messianic Prophecies by Franz Delitzsch because although it does not appear as promising as Lockyer it is but 0.99 cents!

As for Logos, I searched Messianic Prophecy in Factbook and returned useful hits. The search suggested by Factbook returns some useful information, however the "Holy gral" is not found. I also searched my Systematic Theologies for the same, not as helpful, but I did get some useful direction. Running a Topic Guide is interesting, but no more helpful than what has already been presented. 

Overall, I was disappointed that Logos did not yield a comprehensive list of the Messianic prophecies. It seems to me there should be a way of searching your prioritized bible for this information and getting back a list of scripture. I was also surprised that Willmington's Book of Bible Lists did not have the information. Perhaps my Kung fu is lacking here, other more worthy candidates may apply.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 5:50 PM

I did the very blunt search: prophecy AND (messiah,christ,jesus)

Dictionary of Bible themes has an article "Jesus Christ, prophecies concerning".

See if you have this resource: Introduction to Theology, Roy Gingrich

The book Beginning at Moses: A Guide to Finding Christ in the Old Testament seems to be very much what you are looking for.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 6:42 PM

Search help...feel dumb asking this

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2015 7:04 PM

Eureka!

Not sure this is comprehensive, but I found this among the Topic Guide results it's in Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary  logosres:hlmnillbbldict;ref=Page.p_1112

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 6:22 AM

https://www.logos.com/product/600/the-prophecy-knowledge-handbook 

I've always liked this book but this book contains all of the Bible prophecies and not just Messiah relaxed ones

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 6:24 AM

I haven't read this one but it may be worth a look

https://www.logos.com/product/49066/jesus-christ-fulfills-messianic-prophecies 

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 8:19 AM

Thanks Mattillo 

I picked up "the prophecy knowledge handbook" it looks like it may be what i wanted.

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Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2015 12:46 PM

A good book on the subject that I wish was in Logos is by Gerard Van Groningen, Messianic Revelation in the Old Testament (Grand Rapids; Baker, 1990), 1015 pages.

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BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2015 3:32 AM

Great question Lee! In fact this one of the best question anyone can ask.

Lee:
I want a book that list good clear prophecies for the Messiah, and list the clear Fulfillment for them.

My favorite book on the subject would have to be:

The Messiah in the Old Testament by Walter C. Kaiser Jr. 

http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-Old-Testament-Walter-Kaiser/dp/031020030X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447500031&sr=8-1&keywords=messiah+in+the+old+testament

It is too bad Logos does not yet have the rights to this work. However, they do have a few other works by Walter C. Kaiser Jr.

Although, the following is not available in Logos yet you might want to vote on it:

https://www.logos.com/product/32408/charles-augustus-briggs-collection

Because, it contains  Messianic Prophecy: The Prediction of the Fulfilment of Redemption through the Messiah another great book you would be interested it.

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2016 5:19 PM

Lee:
I want a book that list good clear prophecies for the Messiah, and list the clear Fulfillment for them.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) introduction:

CJB Footnote 67 refers to an Appendix => The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah and => Dictionary of Biblical Prophecy and End Times

Keep Smiling Smile

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 17 2016 2:01 PM

Look at this new book for Pre-Order on Vyrso:

www.dccebooks.com/products/every-prophecy-about-jesus

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Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 17 2016 4:42 PM

Don't forget the Jewish Resources

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Scott Quillin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 2 2017 8:31 AM

Thank you Justin Gatlin for your recommendation. I purchased "Beginning at Moses: A Guide to Finding Christ in the Old Testament" by Michael Barrett and it's exactly what I was looking for (and more). 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 2 2017 10:11 AM

Hi Scott,

If I may make a suggestion. I have found that many such resources work backward in a way that is circular and not really helping Christians make better sense of the OT background of the Gospels. It goes like this:

1. Passage is read in the NT and interpreted according to Western Gentile tradition. Example: The use of Joel 2:28-20 in Peter's sermon in Acts 2 = proof that the coming of the Spirit "on all flesh" (understood as all mankind by many) was prophesied and what is more was accompanied by the statement that those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Checkmark.

2. From Acts 2, readers go back to Joel 2:28-30 and interpret it "Christologically". In this case, it means reading back into the OT passage what was decided about what the NT passage meant without more than superficial engagement of the OT background = Joel 2:28-30 refers to the fact that Pentecost would happen one day. Double-checkmark, everything checks and "confirms" each other.

3. Scholars who look at the OT in relation to the traditional interpretation of how it is used in the NT will often conclude that the NT changed the meaning, gave the passage new meaning or used some interesting technique to make the OT passage to speak about the NT situation.

I have yet to encounter any Christological approach to the OT that does not do that in a significant way. The so-called Christocentric interpretations of the OT are for the most part reshaping the meaning of the OT in light of Christian (not NT, traditional Christian) theology. 

Now books that give you "messianic prophecies" may be a needed shortcut when one does not have the time or skills to do more. But they treat such passages as prooftexts without context. Such approaches do not really engage the Jewish background of the OT nor attempt to really understand how the Christian message located itself in relation to the hopes, expectations, and yes prophetic background of Israel. 

To understand the Messiah in the OT, one has to wrestle with what the prophets were really saying to their contemporaries in the context of their time. They were not speaking and writing to Christians! With that in mind, one can then reverse the hermeneutical approach identified above:

1. Start with Joel 2:28-30. What does it mean in the context of Joel?

2. In light of this, what could Peter have meant when he connected it to Pentecost?

3. What does this tell us about how Pentecost fits in God's foretold larger plan? 

4. If we do find a tension between the NT appropriation and the OT sense, THEN we can try to tease out how the two relate to each other. 

5. In some cases, the NT provides more information and ONLY IN THAT SENSE help us better understand the original sense (i.e., when a prophecy is fulfilled we see more clearly what was meant by it, e.g., Isaiah 53's suffering Servant). 

So my advice would be that even though it is a long road, don't take shortcuts to "finding" Christ in the OT. Study the OT to "get it" and then not only you are likely to have a much better understanding of what the NT is really all about but it will also become clear to you how it relates to the OT.

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Scott Quillin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 2 2017 11:36 AM

Francis - Thank you for taking the time to offer a thoughtful suggestion and some advice. I appreciate your insight. 

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 2 2017 2:13 PM

Francis:
To understand the Messiah in the OT, one has to wrestle with what the prophets were really saying to their contemporaries in the context of their time. They were not speaking and writing to Christians!

I think my thoughts are similarly aligned. I've always wanted to do a deep study on what the jews believed about the mashiach during OT period as well as how that belief may have evolved throughout history to modern day, independent of christian thought. Unfortunately, I've yet to find time to research to even find what books to start with. A Google search on "mashiach" or "books on mashiach" may be a rough way to get started along this line. I don't get any results on logos/vyrso/noet with this term. This is why I'd LOVE to have a Jewish base package. 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 2 2017 11:41 PM

Randy W. Sims:
I've always wanted to do a deep study on what the jews believed about the mashiach during OT period

The figure of the Messiah is bound up with the hopes and expectations of Israel in the prophets, so a study of the first needs the second as a context. I could set up a Faithlife group for study and discussion if there is sufficient interest.

Randy W. Sims:
as well as how that belief may have evolved throughout history to modern day, independent of christian thought

A starting point on the Jewish perspective is the article on "Messiah" in the Jewish Encyclopedia. A bit dated but still representative. If you don't own it in Logos, you can consult for free online.

There is also the article on Messianism in the Eerdmans Dictionary of Early Judaism. Both of these reference the role of intertestamental literature.

But there is no substitute for just taking the time (even if it is over a long period of time) to read and acquaint oneself with the primary sources. 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 3 2017 8:06 AM

Francis:

To understand the Messiah in the OT, one has to wrestle with what the prophets were really saying to their contemporaries in the context of their time. They were not speaking and writing to Christians! With that in mind, one can then reverse the hermeneutical approach identified above:

Not trying to argue, but you're guessing. Alternatively the writing could be a Spirit product, with two audiences intended (the Spirit is time-independent). The same issue occurs with the LXX; it could be a Spirit product for the new church. The hebrew irrelevant.

In my alternative views, you could accurately suggest I'm guessing. But that was a major 2nd Temple argument.

EDIT: I was careful to say '2nd Temple'. The messiah, as a jewish hot-topic was almost totally post-Temple.


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