Zondercrooks stick it to Pradis users

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This post has 44 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Feb 18 2010 6:59 AM

Any other Praids users angered by the puny Zondercrook's discounts?  I own everything in the prepub bundle and more, except for the OT backgrounds commentary.  If I purchased the bundle with the discount I would pay more than I originally did!

I wish I could say that I'm surprised but I'm not.  I won't be buying anything else from Zondercrooks and I will be sharing my experience with all will listen.  

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 7:05 AM

The way I read it,  Pradis owners get a 40% discount ABOVE the pre-pub discount price.  That's not a good deal?

-note: I'm NOT a Pradis user

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 7:10 AM

No it's not.  If I purchased the whole bundle with the discount I would end up paying more than I did originally for the very same resources.  I already own all those resources and more, except for the OT Backgrounds.  Paying again for something I already own does not sound like a good deal to me!

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 7:31 AM

Richard, I agree. Zondervan decided to abandon its users and now wants them to pay them MORE than they did originally to continue to use those resources on a supported platform. Fine decision. But when they treated their original pre-Pradis buyers like me with disdain I realized Zondervan didn't care about standing behind their customers. They put their own greed first. Corporate policy apparently.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 8:56 AM

I'm not a Pradis owner, so maybe I misunderstood, but does Pradis stop working at some point? Do you loose your resources? Is Zondervan asking you to buy them again? 

Maybe I am wrong, but it has sounded like Zondervan is no longer going to be maintaining Pradis, but the program and resources would still continue to work.

Anytime you buy (or lease) a digital copy of a book from a company, even through Logos, you take the chance that that company will one day be no more or that your resources will not be updated at some point. Some people call that gambling.

I don't see how calling Zondervan names will be of any benefit to anyone.

all about Christ,

David

PS - No, I don't work for nor ever have worked for Zondervan, nor do I have any friends or family that have ever worked there.

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 9:14 AM

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much?  The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library.  We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers.  Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment.   How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

Posts 3691
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 9:17 AM

I join my voice to the chorus of disappointed owner of Pradis resources. The one resource that I own and would really like to have in Logos is the NIDOTTE. I bought it in the old days from RJCS for 89.95. The pre-pub price is 159.99 and with the 40% it comes to 95.99.

On top of this, this announcement has been very long in coming and now it is so close to the expected release of titles in pre-pub that we have to rush to make the decision. Once the titles are off pre-pub, the deal will be even more bitter to swallow.

Ironically, I have a pre-pub ordered that is supposed to come out today. I don't have the money for both right now. Should I cancel my other pre-pub to get NIDOTTE and then pay full-price later on the first product? Should I make this decision now in a rush?

I am also HUGELY disappointed with the limitation that the discount applies only to one combined order. I can understand that there is a time limit (June), but are we supposed to have the financial means to replace all Pradis titles in one shot?

So now is the real question, and it's so many times the same question that comes back again and again: what is the abused customer to do? Shall we boycott and more likely than not have no other result than deprive ourselves of tools we can use for our ministry? Or shall we capitulate and give our money to those who do this kind of things?

I am seriously tempted by the boycott option and may not even have the choice: I don't have the money to make a quick move right now and I am not sure that I would be able to swallow that pill. Will I be able to swallow the even bigger pill when the products are at full price?

One thing I do know: even if I end up purchasing one product I absolutely need, I will not again purchase from them anything else that I don't absolutely need.

Posts 3666
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 9:25 AM

I guess, I see don't see a problem.  A 40% discount seems fair to me.  I will not be using it as I can not afford to update at this point.  I will continue to use my paper and Pradis copies of what I own,  That does not mean the price is not fair, just that it is outside of my budget right now.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 9:35 AM

Floyd Johnson:

I guess, I see don't see a problem.  A 40% discount seems fair to me.  I will not be using it as I can not afford to update at this point.  I will continue to use my paper and Pradis copies of what I own,  That does not mean the price is not fair, just that it is outside of my budget right now.

Blessings,

Floyd

 

The problem for me is simple and straight-forward when you take a step back and look at the big picture.

Like a lot of Bible Software companies, Z offers a big discount when you buy one of their "packaged" libraries. I purchased both the Teacher's and Pastor's Library and the Understanding the Bible libraries. No one in their right mind would have bought each of the books individually, as the combined package price was... (wait for it)  around 40% off the price if you'd bought each of the resources individually at retail via the download method. So, in essence, I'd be paying for the package all over again.

It's that simple.

My plan is to wait and see when Zondervan announces their new packages in Libronix format (which is what my understanding of the deal involved) and then make a decision. I have no doubt that I will purchase a few of the resources I currently have in Pradis to take advantage of the search and study abilities in Logos 4, but as for a complete upgrade (i.e. repurchase), we'll see.

Steve R.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 11:00 AM

Well let me see I bought my EBC at the end of the year, when they were updating the program the next year, for 40 dollars.

The EBC now costs 130 dollars but since I was with Zondervan all those years I get a 40% discount, which is minus 52 dollars which means I only pay 78 dollars.  Which is not a bad buy, but wait a minute it is still almost twice what I paid for EBC when I got it on a good deal, and before I forget that 40% off actually cost me 40 dollars or I would not have gotten it for only 78 dollars, so if I add that 40 dollars on to the 78 dollars I can get the EBC in Logos for only 118 dollar because I was a Zondervan fannnnn!

At least I did not just buy my EBC last year  before Zondervan was closing their program out, I could have spent 70 dollars at a good price at the discount places for my EBC and my new Logos upgrade would have only cost me 148 dollars to get the Logos EBC!!!

Wait a minute, what if I had bought the EBC last year at the normal price in a regular Christian book store???  For the retail price of 129 dollars,  Then my new upgrade to Logos would only be 207 dollars!  Now that really  would make one thankful to be a Zondervan fannnn!

It might just pay to wait and see what the EBC will cost at the discount places later this year, will it be more or less than the 78 dollar buy that I had to spend 40 dollars to get???

I think for a lot of folks they were hoping for more from Zondervan.

In Christ,

Jim

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 11:13 AM

I am a pradis owner and will be taking advantage of the discount. I am very grateful for it. When I originally purchased my pradis resources I knew they weren't in Logos and that Zondervan had historically forced people to buy again. But bargain was great and I have gottne good use out of it.. Zondervan owed me nothing and I get a discount. I'm grateful.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 1:21 PM

Jacob, you might feel differently if you had invested nearly a thousand dollars in Pradis then you discover it will cost you another $1000 to change software platforms.  In my opinion it's not right or fair.  I'm simply expressing my opinion.  I will continue to use Pradis for as long as possible.  I will not pay twice for the same resources.  I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer.  I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 2:02 PM

ReneAtchley:

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much?  The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library.  We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers.  Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment.   How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

Rene,

 At times, I have had the fleeting thought of "what would happen if some of us just put are foot down and said 'Too expensive therefore we won't buy it"

I like your analysis, thanks for your perspective.

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 2:55 PM

Joan Korte:

ReneAtchley:

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much?  The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library.  We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers.  Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment.   How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

 

Rene,

 At times, I have had the fleeting thought of "what would happen if some of us just put are foot down and said 'Too expensive therefore we won't buy it"

I like your analysis, thanks for your perspective.

Thank you for your kind words

Posts 2925
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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 3:41 PM

Richard Crampton:

Jacob, you might feel differently if you had invested nearly a thousand dollars in Pradis then you discover it will cost you another $1000 to change software platforms.  In my opinion it's not right or fair.  I'm simply expressing my opinion.  I will continue to use Pradis for as long as possible.  I will not pay twice for the same resources.  I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer.  I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

I'm not disagreeing with you that you got ripped off. That's why I did my best to avoid Pradis and get digital titles exclusively in Logos. Didn't they re-charge you for items if you wanted to upgrade to a newer version of Pradis? I'm not trying to minimize the ripoff factor, just pointing out that when we bought Pradis we knew we weren't buying a perpetual license for a resource across platforms, but rather buying a license for a book on a single version of a piece of software with no guarantee of future upgrades. I do not think that's how business should be done, but that's my understanding of how Zondervan decided to do things. So now, this purchase of a Logos resource is quite different than what we purchased from Z in the past. 

So the frustration directed at Zondervan should not be new...having us rebuy our resources is not new. But now we are buying resources that we will not have to buy again because they are Logos-compatible. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2010 4:54 PM

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Not really replying to anyone specific. I am a little disappointed in the discount--thought it should be more. I owned EBC and the Bible Study cd (included titles like Enclopedia of Bible Difficulties, UBS 4, Nave's, New International Commentary, and a few others). When I started losing some of the functionality of the software I upgraded to Pradis. However, I was told that the only software that was eligible for an upgrade was EBC. The cost was $25. My other Z products were not eligible because Z did not have any compatible products currently available. I was happy to get EBC in the Pradis platform for only $25. Subsequently, I added NIDOTTE, NIDNTT, NIVAC NT, and NIVAC OT Prophets for an additional $480 ($505 with the EBC upgrade).

Three weeks ago I called Zondervan tech support with a software issue. Although he was unable to help me, I asked him if he had heard anything about the discount for Pradis users moving onto the Logos platform. He told me that the standard upgrade price for Z product owners was a $25 upgrade fee--something which I already knew. He did stress that he did not know what the company was planning on doing only that the standard fee is $25 per item. I was not expecting that kind of a discount to carry over for this situation, but I do think that they could have done much better than the 40% discount that is being offered. My discount price for the items that I am currently using in digital format is $464. That's a lot of money for resources I am already using--albeit in an inferior format (and yes I know 40% is 40%).

I do believe it would be wrong and ungrateful not to thank Logos for their work in getting us the best discount they could. Thank you Logos; you have the best customer service I have experienced.

Sincerely,

Daniel Bender

Note: This is my third attempt to post this reply (page wouldn't refresh and lost my reply)--i.e. this response is not as well thought out as my first attempt. I would really like to have my Pardis products in Logos 4 but the cost for me is a huge hurdle and it means giving up some of the pre-pubs I would like to add to my library this year.

 

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 12:56 PM

This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.

I love the ability to do searches and having my entire library on my computer. In some ways I think it is cheaper purchasing the electronic sources that it is the paper resources. Yet, I can keep those books around for decades (well, I guess there is always the chance of fire/flood).

In many ways we are dependent on the company to do the right thing. Zondervan, as far as I know, is not a "christian" company. They are owned by HarperCollins. I believe they started out as a Christian company, but I believe that ended a while back if I remember correctly. 

Perhaps the best thing about Logos is that they are not a publishing company making an electronic version of their products, but rather a software company licensing books...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

Don't get me started on kindle vs. nook vs. iBook. In the end...we don't _own_ anything...I guess we only purchase the right to use it as long as the rights holder decides we can use it :(

Posts 2694
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 1:31 PM

DavidMullens:

This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.

True, its a risk we all take..  It was heavily debated during the early beta period...

Let me put it your concern a different way back to you,  if you lost your paper copy of your favorite book or sadly lost your library to flood, fire or "Act of God" as the insurance compaies say, if that book or some titles are now out of print, its also unlikely you might find a replacement, and if you do will cost you a great deal more than you originally paid, so its the same arguement IMO.

However, with Logos 4 digital, your library can be re-downloaded easily onto your new laptop, that said, its important for us all be good stewards of our PC's and to keep a regular backup of our books... just incase the server did go down.

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:51 AM

I have emailed Zondervan with my concerns but of  course they have not bothered to answer.  Here's the email for anyone else who would like to contact them,   jason.vines@zondervan.com

Here's what I wrote:

Dear Jason Vines, I own almost all of the resources Zondervan produced in Pradis format.  I was very disappointed to hear that the Pradis platform would no longer be supported since I have invested nearly a $1000. Someday, in the not too distant future, my software and resources will be worthless.  My investment will be lost.   Yes, there is a solution.  Spend over a thousand dollars and repurchase the resources on the new software platform, Logos.  That's about what it would cost me with the 40 percent discount and prepub pricing.  To be honest it makes me angry.  So angry that I will not being purchasing anything else produced by Zondervan.    My feelings probably makes little difference to a large company like Zondervan.  They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles.   Thanks for listening, Pastor Rick Crampton

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:16 AM

Richard Crampton:

I have emailed Zondervan with my concerns but of  course they have not bothered to answer.  Here's the email for anyone else who would like to contact them,   jason.vines@zondervan.com

Here's what I wrote:

Dear Jason Vines, I own almost all of the resources Zondervan produced in Pradis format.  I was very disappointed to hear that the Pradis platform would no longer be supported since I have invested nearly a $1000. Someday, in the not too distant future, my software and resources will be worthless.  My investment will be lost.   Yes, there is a solution.  Spend over a thousand dollars and repurchase the resources on the new software platform, Logos.  That's about what it would cost me with the 40 percent discount and prepub pricing.  To be honest it makes me angry.  So angry that I will not being purchasing anything else produced by Zondervan.    My feelings probably makes little difference to a large company like Zondervan.  They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles.   Thanks for listening, Pastor Rick Crampton

 

Richard, you did a pretty good job of summing up your thoughts and feelings on the matter.  One area that might add to that is to ask for his input: (take your pick) if anything could be done for customers in your situation, or for clarification on Zondervan's rationale for dropping the platform and asking customers like you to spend more than you (may) have for yet another platform, etc.  Whether or not you get a response, hard to say (and there could be multiple reasons for that), but it always helps to ask for something specific.  Otherwise it appears that you just wanted to say your piece and be done with it.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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