Still using L3? Prefer L3?

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 2:29 PM

David, I have a certain nostalgia for L3, but I have switched to L4.  I agree that some of the uses L3 still seems to have an edge on L4 (notes and printing, and PBB--although I never made use of that one) really "hurt" full conversion to L4.  And I suppose ones preference for L3 over L4 is in direct proportion to one's use of those features.

That said: while I was an excited fanboy about L4's release, it seemed that it took a month or two for me to really convert.  I was burdened by a new work flow, a semi slower XP running machine, and overall unfamiliarity with L4.  At times I really just wised it would go away. 

I don't have that feeling anymore.  While some things (lack of printing) annoy me, soooo many other things have captured my attention and made me enjoy study within L4.  Clippings is one feature.  A much better library (graphically and search-wise).  Better pane/window management.  Power lookup.  etc.

I like it.  Glad it is here.  WIsh I had an iPad.  And about 5K for my pre-pub wish list and another 5 K for books I don't own that are already published.

I still want improvements.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 3:04 PM

David Paul:
Um, no, Terry...it isn't phrased that way. Not even remotely so. I'm amazed you feel you could say something so...untrue...in a public forum.

ahh the nuances of communication. By the way, if I felt it was untrue, I wouldn't  have said it whether in public or in private. 

 

David Paul:
our response is akin to the thick students I teach who are so intent and focused on themselves that they have to mouth off whenever they perceive the slightest provocation

This admission on your part about your feelings for your students says it all, but not about your students.

David Paul:
o you want to cheer for Logos?  Fine, be my guest and more power to you--let me introduce you to the button called "Write a New Post".

As you pointed out, this is a public forum and anyone may post as long as they don't violate the guidelines of the forum. If you feel that I have done so, and I am not being receptive to your "gentle" rebuke, then I suggest you use the abuse button and report me.  I answered about the ways in which I still used L3.

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 3:27 PM

David Paul:
Does this strike a chord with anyone else?  I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Not exactly but sorta ... because unfortunately, the functions I used the most are among the "forthcoming" items. So, yes, I have returned to using L3 more than I would like but retain my "half-glass full" optimism that this is temporary.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4780
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 3:34 PM

Certainly, MJ, my fervent hope is that enough forthcoming changes will tip my attitude toward L4, at least to the point that I am making significant use of it, even if I never adopt it completely. I think it clearly won't ever adopt all of my desires--Bob as much as said so...though I suppose things can change. I am thus cautiously optimistic...or maybe I should say "hopeful".

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 3:58 PM

David Paul:

For the record, I don't hate L4...but even if I did, what concern is that of yours? It isn't...period. If there are people who have spent hundreds or even thousands on this program who find it isn't performing as it should for them, they have every right to say so on this forum without being berated, castigated, harangued, or scolded for their lack of satisfaction. People have a RIGHT to express their frustration if their attempts to effectively use the software are consistently frustrated. And there is no reason they should have to mollycoddle the hairtrigger sensibilities of either Logos cheerleaders or "niceniks" who grossly confuse dissatisfaction with a lack of loyalty to Logos (an odd notion, regardless) or worse, a lack of Christianity.

Do you want to cheer for Logos?  Fine, be my guest and more power to you--let me introduce you to the button called "Write a New Post".

David,

I'm certain God is using your post here to teach me patience under the most unreasonable circumstances...

 

So thank you.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 4:17 PM

I am still using both versions of the software mainly because my laptop computer doesn't have the horsepower or the RAM to handle L4. Thus L3 is the software of choice. However, on my desktop I have both installed and at times fall back to L3 to do some of the tasks with which I am most familiar and haven't had the time to figure them out on L4.

The one feature I miss the mpst is the customizable toobars but again it may just be lack of familiarity. L4 has a lot of features of which I haven't even scratched the surface. All in all I am very pleased with L4 and recognize there is a pretty steep learning curve. Quite honestly I doubt that I ever used the full potential of L3, but it did (does) what I wanted and is a tremendous tool for sermon and lesson preparation. My prep time is a small fraction of what it used to be when I was limited to the hard cover editions of my library.

Posts 142
John Hapgood | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 4:45 PM

David Paul:

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I'm finding it hard but I'm doing it. I want to learn all there is to know about it so, despite the problems (like it not responding for a few seconds at a time while I type text into a box), I continue to use it every day and only launch L3 if I absolutely have to. But yes, it is a little hard . . . but not enough to grumble about.

I post my problems and get all the help I need and await patiently the perfected product. God is GOOOOOD!!!

What I grumble the most about are my sore eyes from looking at this screen all day every day. And I wish I had my youthful energy back that I had when I was in my teens and twenties so I could concentrate on the subject I'm studying. BUT . . . I'm looking forward to that upgrade as well :o)

 

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 5:06 PM

I am reminded of my resistance to Office 2007. I held out until early 2009. I was comforatble with Office 2003 and disliked all of the differences between the 2003 and 2007 user interfaces. Essentially Office 2007 was a complete rewrite of the software. But I took on a long term sub-teaching assignment and the school was using Office 2007 so I had to take the plunge. Now a year later I can't imagine going back to Office 2003.

I suspect I will eventually  find myself in the same position with L3 and L4 especiallt given that there will eventually be no new resources or updates for L3. But for the ow and I suspect for many months to come I will be using both for the reasons stated in my previous post.

There is a learning curve for any major software upgrade. Sometimes it is steeper than other times as is the case with L4. And as I have found out since becoming a pastor, most people don't like change and tend to resist it, myself included.

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 6:25 PM

Bob Schlessman:

I am reminded of my resistance to Office 2007. I held out until early 2009. I was comforatble with Office 2003 and disliked all of the differences between the 2003 and 2007 user interfaces. Essentially Office 2007 was a complete rewrite of the software. But I took on a long term sub-teaching assignment and the school was using Office 2007 so I had to take the plunge. Now a year later I can't imagine going back to Office 2003.

I suspect I will eventually  find myself in the same position with L3 and L4 especiallt given that there will eventually be no new resources or updates for L3. But for the ow and I suspect for many months to come I will be using both for the reasons stated in my previous post.

There is a learning curve for any major software upgrade. Sometimes it is steeper than other times as is the case with L4. And as I have found out since becoming a pastor, most people don't like change and tend to resist it, myself included.

Well said Bob. I feel ya on the change in the church thing. Have you heard something like "we've always done this" or we've never done it that way before"?

Posts 456
Pastor Roger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 7:12 PM

David Paul:
Does this strike a chord with anyone else?  I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.
\

Yes, to some degree it does strike a chord, but I keep plodding through the program in hopes that tomorrow will be a brand new day.  

The reason people get their hackles up when this program is criticized or challenged in any way is because "Where your treasure it, there your heart will be."  Many have thousands of dollars invested and they're not about to let some newbie who just bought the Christian Home Library rub the problems in their faces.  Of course, I've spent over a thousand, but I'm relatively happy and I don't mind change.  I know that change always takes some getting used to.  The more I use L4, the more Iike it.  Furthermore, I also use the alpha 13a version on my Mac and I like it better than the PC version (sans the notes features and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work yet on the Mac).  

Folks need to calm down.  It will be okay, I promise.  

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 7:19 PM

I continue to use version 3 because it is comfortable for me and I don't want to spend any more money on Bible software than I have too.  Lets hope each new generation (18 months or so) of interface doesn't orphan previous versions on the way to a subscription based library system...i.e. you pay more and more for less and less on your computer....each year.

Posts 3
William Darius Myers | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 7:41 PM

Have you heard something like "we've always done this" or we've never done it that way before"?

Ah, the sweet sound of the Seven Last Words of the Church. Almost worth building a tenebrae service around, isn't it?

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 2:41 PM

Notes is the big reason I still use L3. I expect to continue using L3 when import of notes is available since the L4 notes may still need further tweaking. I like some things about L4, but would have been quite happy not to have had it for another year or two while it was all completed.

I have stopped buying resources for it though, because at some level I don't really like using L4. I don't mean in comparison to L3, I mean in its own right. The work-flow is "awkward" or something. Wish I could put my finger on that. Suffice to say, if there was another option out there for this scale of library study, I might be swayed to it.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 2:52 PM

Edward hyndman:

Notes is the big reason I still use L3. I expect to continue using L3 when import of notes is available since the L4 notes may still need further tweaking. I like some things about L4, but would have been quite happy not to have had it for another year or two while it was all completed.

I have stopped buying resources for it though, because at some level I don't really like using L4. I don't mean in comparison to L3, I mean in its own right. The work-flow is "awkward" or something. Wish I could put my finger on that. Suffice to say, if there was another option out there for this scale of library study, I might be swayed to it.

I too will be using L3 until the note function of L4 because at lest as useful as L3.  

At first, I was thinking that L4 came out 9 to 12 months too soon.  Based on what I have seem, the updates Logos has provided so far, and the number of issues people are having, I am thinking it came out 18 to 24 months too soon.

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 3:30 PM

L3 is not nearly the bible study tool that L4 is, they just don't compare.  What a difference L4 has made in my study and hunger for the scripture in last few months.  So to answer your OP, no, what you say does not strike a chord with me at all.

Also, just because someone has found a tool that really works in their life does not mean that they value the tool over the Word  - insinuations to the opposite are a bit out of line.  And none of the above makes me an apologist, just my experience.  

Hoping we can keep this thread civil, maybe a little editing above would help that.

Posts 173
Wesley Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 4:59 PM

Still using L3? Well, yea there are some things I still have to use L3 for that L4 doesn't have YET my prayer list is all important to me, and the ability to import sermons, and I do occasionally need fuzzy search. But all these will be coming to L4.

Prefer L3? I did, but after learning to use L4 I have found it to be a wonderful tool for sermons and Lesson making as well (especially when I am "strapped for time") Embarrassed.

I will admit, I do have to learn to work it, but I also am a little slow on Windows 7 which is still new to me too!

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 6:47 PM

Sometimes L4 is overwhelming for me. Of course I never mastered L3. It is definitley a pro-con equal situation. It would be like me buying a piano!

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:39 AM

After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3.  It's not because I do not want to learn L4 or even use it-I don't want to struggle with the maintenance of the program itself.  As much as I'd like to get every update when it comes out, I'll wait until releases are stable and not buggy. ( I don't have time to waste deleting a file or two to see if I can get the index right, for example.)  I want the "new" very much but not until it proves itself to be easier to maintain.

Posts 645
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:04 PM

David Paul:

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I've been using Logos since it came out on 3.5" disks and currently use it almost every day. I don't say the following with any animosity.

L4 has damaged Logos' reputation in my eyes. Not because its fails to advance the technology or provide a better product (though I can't really say one way or the other since I can't make it do anything productive yet) but because they continue to make the barrier to productivity so high despite the competitive proliferation of free web-base Bible study tools that must be eating into their market share of low end package products.

I worked as a product developer and manager in the high-tech industry for a long time. I am experienced in developing hardware and software products that interface with people. Logos is a company that has never been very effective at developing user-friendly/intuitive interfaces, help information or customer education. If it weren't for Morris Proctor, I would have abandoned Logos long ago. I had hoped it would be different this time around, but the fact remains that real price of the L4 upgrade is the money paid to Logos plus the price of one or more of Mo's seminars, plus the time to wait until he comes to our state. Don't get me wrong. Mo does an absolutely fantastic job. In fact I can't see how Logos can exist without him, but he's necessary because the user interface for Logos is quite obtuse.

Of course Logos is going to say, "we have videos!".  But the L4 videos are like buying a complex VCR and getting a free video that shows you how to plug it into the wall, turn it on and set the time. For some that's enough either because they don't need much more, or because they can figure the rest out on their own, but suppose the VCR includes features that involve ways of doing things that no one has seen before? Then what would you think of the video?

So, I have L3 set up with custom toolbars and I know exactly how to get complex tasks done quickly. Every week or so I open L4, let it update itself, stare at it for a few minutes, try to do something useful, fail, and go back to L3 so I don't waste my time. I don't mind learning, but trial and error gets old - and I'm old enough that I don't have too many years left to waste. Furthermore, there is no use in going very far until I can port my notes over. In fact if Logos fails to make the notes backwards compatible, it may be a real long time before I can use L4, because I don't envision a sudden-death transition from L3 to L4.

If Logos had some videos that explained how to set up L4 to accomplish what I do in L3, then I could make the switch. But that might compete with Mo's seminars, so I don't see it happening.

An additional problem I have, is that I'm out of work. The upgrade was a sacrifice. I don't know if I can afford another seminar even when Mo comes to our state.

I don't know how this story is going to resolve itself.

 

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:48 PM

The real problem i have with L4 is the constant updating and indexing.  It seems that every week we have something new to download which for me isnt that big of a problem but it is the indexing that follows that really gets on my nerves.  Then you better hope that you don't have a corrupted index or you may have to totally reindex and that takes a while.  I think I would rather have slower searches and no indexing.  I wish we got the choice.  

Other than that I love the program and use it exclusively and am waiting anxiously for the mac version to be complete.  

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