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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 20 2015 9:35 AM

Mark Barnes:

MJ. Smith:

Another side effect of the generic transliteration rather than identification of the language ...?

No. It's a side effect of the multiplicity of transliteration schemes that are/have been in use, and the ambiguity of many of the simpler transliteration schemes, where a single English character could represent one of many Hebrew characters.

Yes, what Mark said. Especially on the Hebrew side of things.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 20 2015 10:48 AM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):
Yes, what Mark said. Especially on the Hebrew side of things.

Rick,

my impression from the above was that Logos automatically detects the lemmas/lemmata from their language identifier. 

Maybe I'm just too stupid for this, but how would your algorithm know from a word in say a NICNT commentary tagged as language 'Translit' wether it was a transliteration for Greek or Hebrew? Or is it a simple lookup in a table pointing to in your own lemma database? Then you could easily link agape to the lemma αγαπη, but there's nothing that precludes you from linking both chesed and hesed (and even checed [Vine's]) to חֶסֶד 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 21 2015 4:53 AM

NB.Mick:
Maybe I'm just too stupid for this, but how would your algorithm know from a word in say a NICNT commentary tagged as language 'Translit' wether it was a transliteration for Greek or Hebrew? Or is it a simple lookup in a table pointing to in your own lemma database? Then you could easily link agape to the lemma αγαπη, but there's nothing that precludes you from linking both chesed and hesed (and even checed [Vine's]) to חֶסֶד 

At the moment, Rick's algorithm doesn't attempt to decode transliteration, so your question is hypothetical.

The answer would depend on which direction this works in. Does the algorithm look for words/lemmas in the original text, then search for those words/lemmas in the commentaries? Or does the algorithm attempt to analyse Greek/Hebrew words in the commentaries, and then find those in the original text? You're assuming the latter (which I think would require fewer iterations and therefore be quicker), but the former might be both simpler and more accurate, particularly for transliteration.

If you were using the latter method, you'd have to use fuzzy logic. In other words, you'd use a series of clues as to whether the transliteration referred to Greek, Hebrew, or something else, and compute a probability, rather than necessarily a certainty. Those clues would probably include:

  • The milestone in which they appear (NT/OT or something else).
  • The characters used in the transliteration (many characters only appear in Hebrew transliteration, for example).

If you were using the former method, you'd probably have a series of transliteration rules programmed into the algorithm, then search for words/lemmas from the original text, using each transliteration rule in turn. After a few attempts, it would probably be fairly easy to determine which rules a particular resource was using (or flag it for manual review if it wasn't possible), which would then speed up the process for the remainder of the resource.

If your point is that all this would be easier if Logos' markup didn't use "translit" as a language, but used "translit-hebrew", and "translit-greek", then of course you are right. But as I've said elsewhere, I fear it's too late for that. (And that's not the main issue, as Rick notes above.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 21 2015 12:27 PM

Mark Barnes:
If you were using the latter method, you'd have to use fuzzy logic. In other words, you'd use a series of clues as to whether the transliteration referred to Greek, Hebrew, or something else, and compute a probability, rather than necessarily a certainty. Those clues would probably include:

Which is why I suggested that part of the problems was tagging as "transliteration" rather than with the actual language. The problem of transliteration scheme is more language specific and often with a date or original language of resource dependent. So carving away at the problem on a piece by piece method is likely practical either within the resource processing or as additional resource metadata.

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Angela Murashov | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2016 2:00 PM

Mark Barnes:
I've noticed several volumes seem to be missing from the "Lemma in Passage" tool, despite having many references to the Greek text.

This should be fixed in 6.9 Beta 4. 

Fixed bug that caused conversion between morphological analysis to not be supported in Lemma in Passage.

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Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2016 4:25 PM
Congratulations on your baby.

Soli Deo Gloria

Randy

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Mary-Ellen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 18 2017 9:31 AM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.

Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.

On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.

I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text.  (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)

Perhaps one of our programming-savvy folks has come up with some streamlined combination of an OL Bible Word Study Guide plus some other Logos feature, that is the functional equivalent of a "Lemma in Passage" section for these commentaries?

Here are the crazy work-arounds I can imagine, and both are cumbersome:

Crazy and Cumbersome Method A:

First step:  I go back to my Bible, R-click on my Hebrew or Greek lemma, "Search -> this resource," and turn the Search results into a Passage List.

[Somewhere under the hood of the Bible Word Study Guide, there must be the equivalent of such a Passage List, that generates that great little graphic, showing where each occurrence appears by Bible book.  But I don't see a way to get to that list from within the Guide.  Am I overlooking something?]

Next step:  if

(1) I have tagged all my scholarly commentaries that don't use the Hebrew or Greek script, and

(2) I have created a streamlined, one-section Passage Guide, with only a single "Commentaries" section (for a Collection of those transliteration-only commentaries),

then I create that PG by R-clicking on the first reference in the Passage List.

Next step:  from my one-section PG, I click through to each commentary, and scan through it hoping to find my word.

And then . . . do the same for each reference in my Passage List--R-click to create PG, click through on each commentary, and scan for my word.

But whoa!, that's a lot of windows!  And a whole lot of clicking.  I'm definitely going to get lost and sidetracked very easily.

Crazy and Cumbersome Method B:

Is there a way to turn the Passage List into a single search string of Bible references?

If so, then this method B isn't quite so cumbersome.

If not, then I have to start by typing that string of references as the query for a Basic Search of my Collection of transliteration-only scholarly commentaries.

Then I sort the Search Results by resource, eyeball each one to find all the sections of each commentary that might conceivably talk about my OL word, and then click and scan for my word.  At least this way, I'm working from a single pane of results, and a single pane for each commentary, so I have a fighting chance of keeping track of where I am and what I'm doing.

Any other suggestions?

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Mike Tourangeau | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 28 2017 9:46 PM

If this is a "data set" does that mean we can do searches with it? If so....how?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 29 2017 6:15 AM

Mary-Ellen:

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.

Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.

On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.

I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text.  (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)

Hi Mary-Ellen.

We're actually working on supporting transliterations in the lemma-in-passage data right now. Hopefully soon that data will be available through lemma-in-passage, and your cumbersome workarounds won't be necessary.

Rick Brannan
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 29 2017 6:55 AM

Mike Tourangeau:

If this is a "data set" does that mean we can do searches with it? If so....how?

Mike, the lemma in passage data lives on a server. It is vast and large and best managed that way. We update it with every resource release cycle. While this data can be seen in a right-click on an original language string in a commentary passage (right-click, lemma), it is not indexed at that point of the commentary (it isn't on your local machine so isn't indexed in your local index). The lemma-in-passage passage guide section retrieves the data relevant to the commentaries you own for the current milestone range and displays it in the guide section.

Not saying it'll never happen, but the problem is larger than it seems. I can file a suggestion. I'd also recommend that you or other users create an a suggestion via User Voice for this functionality and assign some votes to it.

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Mary-Ellen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 29 2017 8:39 AM

Thank you for the update, Mr. Data Wrangler!  Geeked

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 11 2017 3:10 PM

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

Mary-Ellen:

Rick Brannan (Faithlife):

Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.

Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.

On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.

I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text.  (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)

Hi Mary-Ellen.

We're actually working on supporting transliterations in the lemma-in-passage data right now. Hopefully soon that data will be available through lemma-in-passage, and your cumbersome workarounds won't be necessary.

Hello again, Mary-Ellen.

The work to lemmatize transliterated strings has been incorporated in the dataset, and the new data is live and available. For more details, see this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912596.aspx#912596 

Rick Brannan
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Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 26 2017 1:17 PM

I posted this question in the General forum and then came across this thread so I thought I'd post it here as well in case some who are familiar with the topic are following it:

When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message. When I view the Bible Word Study, it works fine. It doesn't matter if it's a passage from the Old or New Testament. Any thoughts as to what's wrong or if I'm doing something wrong? Also, what is the difference between "Lemmas in Passage" and "Other Lemmas" in the Bible Word Study? It seems to be showing results for the same lemma under both (see second screen shot showing WBC from Isaiah).

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Rob Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2018 4:30 AM

Matthew:

When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message. When I view the Bible Word Study, it works fine. It doesn't matter if it's a passage from the Old or New Testament. Any thoughts as to what's wrong or if I'm doing something wrong? Also, what is the difference between "Lemmas in Passage" and "Other Lemmas" in the Bible Word Study? It seems to be showing results for the same lemma under both (see second screen shot showing WBC from Isaiah).

I have this same problem. Did anyone ever figure out a fix for it?

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Matthew:
When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message.

What are your top three prioritised Bibles?

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Rob Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2018 7:46 AM

NET

NA27 w/Gramcord

ESV

Lemma in Passage DOES work through Bible Word Study, but not through Exegetical or Passage Guide.

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Rob Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2018 8:25 AM

So, based on your question, I changed my preferred Bibles to ESV, NASB and NIV84, and then Lemma in Passage works for me!

Is there a list somewhere of which preferred Bibles it is limited to?

There is a problem however. I thought Lemma in Passage would find the lemma in any of my resources. However, I noticed right away that it only pulls info from commentaries. No journals were included. (I used "logos" as a test word.) Does it only pull from commentaries?

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Rob Bailey:

So, based on your question, I changed my preferred Bibles to ESV, NASB and NIV84, and then Lemma in Passage works for me!

Is there a list somewhere of which preferred Bibles it is limited to?

This is a bug in the service. We have an existing case for it, and I've added a link to this thread to the case.

Rob Bailey:
Does it only pull from commentaries?

It pulls from the resources that have been tagged in the database. I think (but don't know for sure) that this is primarily commentaries so far. The list of tagged resources grows regularly; e.g., https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912317.aspx#912317  

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Rob Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2018 8:46 AM

This is a slightly different problem, but since you mentioned "tagging" I'll ask it here:

  • When I use the Passage Guide my journals do not show all of my relevant resources. E.g., I Input 1 Timothy 2:12, and looked at what I had under "Journals." I clicked on "Search All Journals" at the bottom which opened a new window.
    • None of my Trinity Journals showed up, even though I know that there are at least two journals containing three articles that include "1 Timothy 2:11-15" in the title.
    • JETS does not show any articles either, even though I know they are there.
    • Articles in Trinity and JETS do show up if I search for 1 Tim 2:12 across all fields. They DO NOT show up if searching "largetext" or "headingtext" even though the references are found there.
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2018 11:10 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Rob Bailey:
Does it only pull from commentaries?

It pulls from the resources that have been tagged in the database. I think (but don't know for sure) that this is primarily commentaries so far. The list of tagged resources grows regularly; e.g., https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912317.aspx#912317  

The data is from commentaries and study Bibles. The data behind the service is updated every two weeks to account for newly released commentaries (and study Bibles).

Rick Brannan
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