How to make this kind of search

Page 1 of 2 (28 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 27 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 53
Placyd Kon | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:26 PM
Please help me! I am trying to find all the verses in NT where Jesus addresses somebody "child" or "children". Is this feasible in Logos? How?
Posts 17
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:34 PM

I'm new to this myself! It works for me if I type this in as a bible search, but I don't know if I'm relying on datasets that aren't universal - I think anyone with a Logos 6 core bundle/crossgrade is ok?

child* WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

EDIT: Hang on, that's just when Jesus says it, not when he addresses someone specific by it. Sorry! Still bumbling my way through, so I'll be quiet now.

Posts 13360
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:39 PM

Placyd Kon:
Please help me! I am trying to find all the verses in NT where Jesus addresses somebody "child" or "children". Is this feasible in Logos? How?

((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>)

Or, just in the words of Jesus:

((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

To take you through it from left to right:

  • I've chosen Sense data rather than lemmas, as there's at least six lemmas which could be relevant, but only two senses (and their children, no pun intended!). You could use Louw-Nida domains if you prefer.
  • We want this word also to be a vocative noun. (That's the case used for a direct address.) WITHIN 0 WORDS links the sense directly to the morph search. You can construct the morph criteria by using the handy picker in Morph Search, then switch to a Bible Search.
  • Finally, we want all of that within the words of Jesus. 
  • The parenthesis work as the do in Math, to ensure the search is carried out in the right order.

Feel free to ask additional questions if you wish.

Posts 898
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:46 PM

Mark posted a good explanation while I was working on mine, so this is pretty redundant.

If you were using a basic search engine, you would be stuck with something like Jesus AND (child OR children). As you know, this is lousy. It will find things like "Jesus and the children sat together," but not "The Son of Man said "My child, I love you."

In Logos, I begin with a more sophisticated but fairly brute force type approach: 

(children, child) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

This finds children or child where the Speaker is Jesus. The list (multiple terms in parenthesis, separated by commas) will find any of the terms inside of it. The WITHIN means it will find that, exactly like it says, WITHIN sections of text where the speaker is Jesus; if you don't use all caps, it will search for the word "within" instead of creating a powerful search. Curly braces show that it is a section of text. The <Person Jesus> is how Logos shows that it will find the places where Jesus is speaking, even if the text says "He" or something similar.

A list of places where Jesus used the word child or children is still too broad, but it gave me some examples. So I clicked on John 13:33, where Jesus calls His disciples little children. I right clicked on "children" as a kind of cheating way to see how Logos actually tags this. I see the Sense icon with "child (endearment)." 

I go back to my original search and change it to: 

<Sense child (endearment)> WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

Which gives exactly what you are looking for. 

Posts 21937
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:52 PM

Mark Barnes:
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

Mark - I really like this but it does give results when Jesus addresses people in terms other than "child*"

Combining this with an earlier suggestion gives

which may be closer to what is being asked for?

Posts 24951
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 12:56 PM

You can search for:

(child, children) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}

It is difficult to have a search distinguish whether he is addressing them or talking about them, but you can easily find the one's of interest in the 40+ verses.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 898
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 1:00 PM

Mark Barnes:

I don't think those senses add anything to just <Sense child (endearment)>, since I assume the study isn't interested in people in parables who are referring to their children, or to actual children. Maybe Luke 8:54 should be tagged as child (endearment), though. I think the Morph is good to add (pedantically), even though it doesn't change the results in this case, since endearment is usually in direct address. 

((child, children) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~NV??>) WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>} probably literally answers the question best, but I assume son and daughter are included in the reasoning behind the question. 

Posts 13360
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 1:02 PM

Graham Criddle:
Mark - I really like this but it does give results when Jesus addresses people in terms other than "child*"

Yes, but different English translations will give different results for that search. The distinction between child/boy/girl isn't really there in Greek, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to search for 'child' in this instance, or more generally to search in English for these types of seaches. You could, of course, do a grid search across all major versions if you really wanted English.

Posts 13360
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 1:07 PM

Justin Gatlin:
I don't think those senses add anything to just <Sense child (endearment)>, since I assume the study isn't interested in people in parables who are referring to their children, or to actual children. Maybe Luke 8:54 should be tagged as child (endearment), though.

Possibly, but (a) I wasn't 100% sure of the intention of the original question, and (b) you don't know unless you try, do you? One of the problems with senses is that there are often multiple terms with similar meanings, and personally I find it a good habit to check the BSL for possible terms, rather than just relying on a cue from a familiar verse (although like you, I often see how Logos tag a verse before I attempt to search).

Posts 21937
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 15 2015 1:08 PM

Mark Barnes:
Yes, but different English translations will give different results for that search. The distinction between child/boy/girl isn't really there in Greek, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to search for 'child' in this instance, or more generally to search in English for these types of seaches

Totally fair point

Mark Barnes:
You could, of course, do a grid search across all major versions if you really wanted English.

From his post it looks as though this was what Placyd was looking for

Posts 53
Placyd Kon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 3:25 AM

Graham Criddle:
From his post it looks as though this was what Placyd was looking for
It looks so. Thank you!

Posts 1576
Forum MVP
Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 4:44 AM

Mark Barnes:
((<Sense ~ child>, <Sense child (endearment)>) WITHIN 0 WORDS <LogosMorphGr ~ NV???>)

This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.

I broke it apart and each section works fine until I try to join them with WITHIN 0 WORDS.

Can anyone confirm?

Posts 1998
Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 4:59 AM

Integ:

This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.

I broke it apart and each section works fine until I try to join them with WITHIN 0 WORDS.

Can anyone confirm?

Tested and working fine on my setup! Have you tried typing "reindex KJV" into the command box....?

Posts 1576
Forum MVP
Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 6:49 AM

I rebuilt the Bible Index and also tried reindexing KJV itself, but it still comes up with zero results.

Works fine in other versions:

Posts 10051
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 7:02 AM

Going out on a limb here, Integ. but what KJV you are actually using? There are a number of resources called KJV and not all of them are morphologically tagged/sense-tagged.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 1576
Forum MVP
Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 7:10 AM

I am using the one that is tagged, the KJV 1900. Each part of the search does work individually, it's just when you throw in the "WITHIN 0 WORDS" that it fails:

Posts 8020
LogosEmployee

Integ:
This search (and the other searches built on it) are not working for me in the KJV 1900. They work in the ESV and NIV for me, however.

I'm not able to reproduce this problem:

What is the support info for your KJV1900? I have:

LLS:KJV1900

2014-11-13T00:16:50Z

KJV1900.logos4

RVI:KJV1900NT

2014-11-13T00:05:12Z

KJV1900NT.lbsrvi

RVI:KJV1900OT

2014-11-13T00:05:12Z

KJV1900OT.lbsrvi

Anyone else seeing (or not seeing) this problem?

Posts 1097
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 9:19 AM

I cannot reproduce the problem either. Everything is functioning normally for me. 

Here's my support info, which appears to be the same as Bradley's:

LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4

RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrvi

RVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrvi

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 1576
Forum MVP
Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2015 9:43 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
What is the support info for your KJV1900?

Looks to be the same:

LLS:KJV1900
2014-11-13T00:16:50Z
KJV1900.logos4

RVI:KJV1900NT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900NT.lbsrvi

RVI:KJV1900OT
2014-11-13T00:05:12Z
KJV1900OT.lbsrvi

Page 1 of 2 (28 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS