Linux version of Logos Bible Software

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LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2009 10:27 AM

AndrewJAllcock:

Logos cannot afford to ignore Linux any longer.

If this were provably true -- with market share stats -- we'd be there. However I've got the real numbers on what it cost to get our software on the Mac, and what kind of sales that generated. I'm pretty sure that the Linux market is smaller than the Mac market, and if it's even a bit smaller (and I suspect it's 1/5th to 1/10th the size), then the numbers don't work. 

I don't want to leave anyone out in the cold, but we need to do projects that make sense financially. I think we'll eventually have some level of support for a wider variety of operating systems, but probalby through the web. http://bible.logos.com and http://books.logos.com are examples of web delivery running on our underlying technology, and available to Win/Mac/Linux/whatever users. These types of solution will pencil out financially before a full port to Linux.

(Conceivably, we could deliver some richer experience through Moonlight, since we'll be using .NET technology moving forward. We'll have to see.)

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2009 11:00 AM

I was not aware of these sites ... maybe you should consider sending an email out to your customers about them.

Is there any way to set up preferences the Bible site, re translations to have at the top?

I trust that you are heading for something that is as functional re orig lang's as blueletterbible.

It would be great to see Logos establish a big "footprint" in the free-web arena, esp re lexical and morphological aids.

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2009 11:15 AM

AndrewJAllcock:
2) Here in the UK a high proportion of Christians in ministry are ditching or have already ditched Windows for moral as well as technical reasons - I would suspect that the proportions of Christians (core market for Logos?) using non-Windows operating systems is higher than the general statistics might suggest. I use Ubuntu Linux and only keep Windows at all for occasional use

You have arroused my curiosity.  I know that many seem to be opposed to Microsoft for various reasons.  I think mostly envy of their success might be the biggest reason.  I don't recall ever hearing anyone say that they objected to Microsoft on moral grounds.  What might those be?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4
Andrew J. Allcock | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:06 PM

Trying not to drift off-topic but you did ask a direct question...

George Somsel:

AndrewJAllcock:
2) Here in the UK a high proportion of Christians in ministry are ditching or have already ditched Windows for moral as well as technical reasons - I would suspect that the proportions of Christians (core market for Logos?) using non-Windows operating systems is higher than the general statistics might suggest. I use Ubuntu Linux and only keep Windows at all for occasional use

You have arroused my curiosity.  I know that many seem to be opposed to Microsoft for various reasons.  I think mostly envy of their success might be the biggest reason.  I don't recall ever hearing anyone say that they objected to Microsoft on moral grounds.  What might those be?

 

OK , my assertions are based on anecdote - and without a comprehensive survey might prove to be unsustainable - but are what I have come to believe from the evidence of my own experience and conversations.

1) Numbers: Out of my current team ministry of three, two of us do not use Windows as our main OS; In the leadership of the church I left at the end of 2008 two out of six in leadership did not use Windows as their main OS; my former theological college is entirely Mac.

2) Reasons: many and varied I'm sure and would open a whole can of worms. For myself I believe that an effective MS monopoly for PC architecture cannot be equitable and I remain uneasy about how this effective monopoly has been attained. You might be correct in citing envy of success as a common motive but I would add to that a suspicion of success.

Posts 4
Andrew J. Allcock | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:24 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:

Can you give more than anecdotal evidence? The trouble is, most of the surveys out there put the Linux userbase in general at 1% worldwide. It might even be less if only Christian users is taken into account.  It might be higher or lower in the UK. Then whatever this Christian user base is, a smaller percentage would ever consider buying Logos Bible software.

The one statistic I did notice was the number of views this thread is getting...Smile

Posts 3663
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:32 PM

AndrewJAllcock:
The one statistic I did notice was the number of views this thread is getting...

I have an academic interest in Linux, but no desire to use LOGOS on the platform.  I have the latest version of Ubuntu - but have not yet installed it.  If history is any indicator (though I realize it often is not), I probably won't.  I wonder of how many like me are out here.

One more thought - the availability of LOGOS in Linux/Unix might confince me to install Linux, but  doubt I would continue to use LOGOS on that platform, even after I installed it.  Could be wrong, but having used Linux in the past, I expect it is true.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:33 PM

AndrewJAllcock:
The one statistic I did notice was the number of views this thread is getting...Smile

I submit that the thread title is provocative and suggests that the Linux version is being considered.

Plus we all wanted to know the source of your statistics Wink

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 204
Steven Yu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 10:27 PM

Todd Phillips:
Plus we all wanted to know the source of your statistics Wink

1,474 read and 46 replied, well 47 now :-)

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free", John 8:32.
"你們必定認識真理,真理必定使你們自由", 約翰福音 8:3.

Posts 10554
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 3:23 AM

Yueh:

Todd Phillips:
Plus we all wanted to know the source of your statistics Wink

1,474 read and 46 replied, well 47 now :-)

I at least touch on all posts so they will not continue to show up in the unread posts list. The read stats may be skewed by such actions.

Jack

Posts 41
LogosEmployee
Phillip | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 10:43 AM

JimDean:

http://bible.logos.com and http://books.logos.com

I was not aware of these sites ...

Here is another new site:  http://transliterate.com/

 

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 2600k @ 4.6GHz | 8GB RAM @ 1866MHz | Intel SSD G2

Posts 54
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 12:54 PM

Of course Logos can ignore Linux, the primary programmers I believe came from Microsoft, and a standard Windows user will be pretty lost if taken from their cozy Windows home. The investment to move to Linux would be huge. Unfortunately, when Logos opted to move into the Mac arena, they apparently did not chose that opportunity to use an environment that would have been compatible on multiple platforms with very little extra investment. One option is a cross-platform solution such as QT, and another is to develop against Crossover by Codeweavers. if they had, then I assume that this thread would have died.

 

The Codeweaverssolution, developing against crossover (http://www.codeweavers.com) would allow all those Windows programmers to mostly feel at home and develop against the Windows API, while providing a single solution that works on Windows, mac, and Linux. EA by Sparx systems does exactly this, and their products work great on multiple platforms because of it. notice that this does provide for IE, which is a libronix requirement I think.

 

My copies of Libronix have been sitting nicely in boxes and such for years. I am repeatedly asked "so, you ready to sell those yet?" It is probably time. I keep hoping that some year i will make this work, but I never do. I will test it against the latest version of crossover I think and either make it work, or sell it. No reason to keep things around that I do not use. Even my wife stopped using the windows computer that I built for her, opting instead to use the Linux box.

 

For the people here that seem to care a lot, well, you can bet money that Logos will do nothing to make the product work on Linux. This is not a condemnation of Logos or meant in any ill way. The money is not there for them. If you really want to put your money where your mouth is, go to the code weavers web site and pay them to make Libronix will work on Linux. They will then do what is required to make it work. Probably take more money than you are willing to spend to make this happen, especially since it looks like Libronix may be using a few special MS libraries for license control, but it has never been worth my time to hack their software sufficiently to figure it out. Even if Codeweavers did fix things, the next release of Libronix might break what was done to allow Libronix to function. I have been pondering how many hundreds of dollars I should add to the reward pot on codeweavers site. I suppose that if I finally dump Libronix, then I will not be putting money in the pot.

 

You can be sure, however, that if you are trying to hack your way through making this work, Libronix will be responsive and help you try to make it work so that you can continue to use your favorite Bible software. I wonder if I will even recognize how the latest copies of Libronix work these days.

Posts 4
Andrew J. Allcock | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 1:35 PM

Apropos nothing in particular, anyone heard of Google Chrome?

Whether my assertions about current non-Windows OS useage stand up to close statistical scrutiny wider than my own network or not, Linux derivatives seem to be the future for PCs as money is supporting their development and distribution from the likes of Canonical and now a heavyweight like Google.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 2:20 PM

AndrewJAllcock:
Whether my assertions about current non-Windows OS useage stand up to close statistical scrutiny wider than my own network or not, Linux derivatives seem to be the future for PCs as money is supporting their development and distribution from the likes of Canonical and now a heavyweight like Google.

Hi Andrew

My personal experience here in the UK contrasts with yours in that I do not know any Christians who use Linux and all those who have tried it have abandoned it as unusable. Whilst there may be a number of challengers to Windows on the horizon I think that Windows will remain dominant for some years to come. In Logos terms I don't expect that change to occur before Bob and the team are working on the design of version 5 and when it does occur I think we will find that much of the software we are using will be delivered on a 'Software As A Service' basis, something that Bob has already alluded to, where the underlying platform becomes irrelevant to the end user (us) and all we need is a system that runs a browser and is effectively a smart terminal.

 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 11:13 PM

Graham Owen:
My personal experience here in the UK contrasts with yours in that I do not know any Christians who use Linux and all those who have tried it have abandoned it as unusable.

I agree. I have a ton of techno programmer/developer friends and only one of them uses Linux as a desktop... oddly enough, even though they write open source programmes, they use Windows as their desktop and a few have moved to Mac in the last couple of years.  The one friend that I do have that uses Linux for a desktop, would never consider paying money for Logos Bible Software. In fact, he pretty much believes in not paying for software, so he uses open source.

The trouble I see is that the average consumer just wants to buy a computer configured and use it. I know there are a growing number of netbooks and even mainstream PCs coming with Linux preloaded, but this is still arguably a very small percentage of the market. (I don't have access to any hard stats on this). Also, I think a lot of times consumers just buy what they know. They used a Windows PC at work, so they buy one for the home. They aren't really that fussed about what is superior technology or even a bit cheaper.  They certainly in most cases aren't going to set up a dual boot, or even more drastic, format their windows hard drive to put Linux on.

Don't get me wrong, I love open source. I was using Linux before the media even figured out it existed quite some years ago (though I prefer FreeBSD). However, unless there are substantial changes in the market base, we won't see a lot of niche software like Logos on Linux. Perhaps Google and others will challenge the dominance of Windows, but I would guess we are looking at least five years away, probably 10.

The in the meantime, the answer is Virtual machines like Fusion, codeweavers, etc. which allow us to run Logos on Linux boxes.  I would guess the trouble is with some of these solutions it is near impossible to expect Logos to provide technical support for Logos not running in a native environment, particularly for something like codeweavers.  There are too many variables and possible Linux distros, configurations of hardware, etc. Certainly if someone were to post a problem with running Logos under one of these virtual machines on these forums, only a very small percentage of users would be able to answer.

I do agree though with some of the sentiment. Things are changing and no one knows where we are heading. Alternative OSes have not weakened, but strengthened in recent years. OSX was almost gone, but has made a huge comeback credit to some ingenuous work, moving to the Intel chipset and being based on BSD. Linux has made HUGE strides in being almost a one click install and certainly has made a huge impact in the server market.  Google just announced this week that they were going to release their own OS for netbooks next year.  So we'll see where this goes.....

Posts 1948
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 10 2009 8:17 AM

Perhaps the conversation should progress in a new direction.  It does appear to be unwise to switch platforms from MS to Linux because there are many many who use MS.  Rather I am wondering if Logos could design Libronix in the future to work across platforms.  In other words, whether one has a Mac, PC, whether one uses Linux or MS or another operating system, the program has been streamlined to install on all of them.

Once again I am not an expert in this field so I just brainstorm suggestions which may or may not be helpful.  Cloud computing of course works regardless of OS and I guess I am becoming convinced that cloud computing should be an option.  But I like the idea that it is not the only opiton and that we could have our purchased books downloaded.  I would say, however, that if the cloud computing option is an option, why not build Libronix to be able to work offline as well regardless of os.  Does that make sense?

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 10 2009 9:39 AM

MarkSwaim:
Once again I am not an expert in this field so I just brainstorm suggestions which may or may not be helpful.  Cloud computing of course works regardless of OS and I guess I am becoming convinced that cloud computing should be an option.  But I like the idea that it is not the only opiton and that we could have our purchased books downloaded.  I would say, however, that if the cloud computing option is an option, why not build Libronix to be able to work offline as well regardless of os.  Does that make sense?

One possibility is to use Java. The trouble is in my opinion, is that I have never found an application that I really liked on Java. I know this is subjective, but it seems like there are compromises being cross platform in the design and integration into the host Operating System. In other words, Java apps always felt like they were really integrated.  They looked different and lacked the polish.  So far, I feel the same way about cloud computing.  I guess the value here is that when I am working on my Mac, I want Logos to really be a full fledged Mac programme.  Or when I am working on my wife's Vista desktop, I really want it to be a full fledged Vista application.  So I guess what I am saying is that part of the beauty of Logos is that it looks and feels like it belongs in both those environments.

Good news is that without a doubt, things are continually developing and perhaps new things are around the corner.

Posts 54
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 10 2009 2:42 PM

You can develop in a cross platform way, and they have toolkits and other items that help you do this. On the other hand, the majority of developers know and Love the Windows environment. Learning the cross-platform environment takes time and effort, and since they already have a working program, the motivation is low.

Also, be clear, the Windows OS is not always easier, in fact, it is a more difficult install for most general purpose applications. For every computer that I have ever built, to make Windows work with a fresh install, I must find, download, and manually install system specific drivers. Until I do, I typically do not have access to things such as networking. Linux, however, includes most of their drivers with the installation, so most things just work. On the other hand, when they don't work with Linux, well, you may be out of luck.

 

Posts 24952
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2009 1:16 AM

Dave Hooton:
Neither will the economy  provide a boost, except that Linux distros improve their installation and provide an overall interface that functions in ways similar to Windows! It seems to be getting there with Ubuntu.

I've got 3 x Linux in my virtual machine on Win XP. I'm really impressed with the latest versions of Mint & Ubuntu because of their Windows-like behaviour during installation and when installing another package (I did not have to know about required components). Not so with Debian, and OpenSUSE was comparable to Vista in suggesting (for Linux) 1 GB of memory! Also, go figure why Debian's browser is called IceWeasel when the other's call the same browser Firefox!

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 6
Jazanias Oliveira | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2009 7:41 PM

Yueh:

Once again, I am pushing foward for a Linux version of Logos, a lot of user are using Linux, and we have been struggling to break away from Windows, but Logos has always been the single software that require us to either dual boot or run a virtual machine with Linux OS.

Anyone share the same view?

 

I face the same problem. I want to get rid of Windows, but Logos prevents me.

 

Ubuntu! :)

Posts 54
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2009 5:24 AM

My solution is to not run Logos. There are other solutions that work just fine on Linux. My opinion, however, is that they are not as nice, which is why I still have the software sitting on my shelf unused years later. If it were more important, I would install Windows in a VM.

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