Logos for a layman

Page 1 of 2 (38 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 37 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2016 3:19 AM

I am just a layman who is interested in using the best tools available to study the Bible.  The only resource I really need from the Starter package is the KJV Bible (which is where I have done quite a bit of highlighting and note-taking from the app), and if everything else were cut out and just the core Bible study tools were included, I would be fine.  I find it strange that Biblia.com provides all the resources provided by default in the app for free, and the Core Engine provides all the functionality of the app for free, but there is no option for the desktop that provides both at the same time.  In fact, if I wanted to have access to the KJV Bible that I have access to from Biblia.com and the mobile app for free from Logos 6, it seems that I have to pay $10.  Why?  Is there no option to be able to highlight and take notes on the KJV Bible from the desktop?

I should mention that I've tried a few different methods to run Android apps on my Windows machine, but they're all pretty kludgy, and while that's better than nothing, it seems like it would be extremely simple to include in the Core Engine what is already included for free elsewhere.  After all, the KJV is in the public domain so it's not even like you would have to pay licensing fees to do that.  Why should I pay $10 for something that's in the public domain and is provided in your other services for free?

If I were able to get the features I get on my phone for free, I might be willing to pay to get the Propositional Outlines Dataset added (assuming I could figure out how to actually buy it, since there is no "Add to cart" button on the page for me).

Posts 21574
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 3:46 AM

Tim Lewis:
 In fact, if I wanted to have access to the KJV Bible that I have access to from Biblia.com and the mobile app for free from Logos 6, it seems that I have to pay $10.  Why?

This is a licensing constraint - Faithlife are able to provide free online access to certain resources (which is why they are available on biblia and in the mobile apps - but you will see you can't download them into the mobile app) but not for resources which are downloaded to your device as they are in the desktop application.

Tim Lewis:
 Is there no option to be able to highlight and take notes on the KJV Bible from the desktop?

Yes - but you will need to purchase the resource first.

Tim Lewis:
it seems like it would be extremely simple to include in the Core Engine what is already included for free elsewhere.

As above - its a licensing issue

Tim Lewis:
If I were able to get the features I get on my phone for free, I might be willing to pay to get the Propositional Outlines Dataset added (assuming I could figure out how to actually buy it, since there is no "Add to cart" button on the page for me).

These datasets are only available as part of base packages or crossgrades - not for individual purchase. The price shown is an "indication of value"

For that dataset you need at least the Core Crossgrade or the Silver base package

Posts 13126
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 4:04 AM

Graham Criddle:
This is a licensing constraint - Faithlife are able to provide free online access to certain resources (which is why they are available on biblia and in the mobile apps - but you will see you can't download them into the mobile app) but not for resources which are downloaded to your device as they are in the desktop application.

It's not just licencing, it's also a business decision. The KJV is public domain in the US (although not in the UK). Logos have chosen to provide a few Bibles for free for download on desktop, but not the KJV.

Tim Lewis:
Why should I pay $10 for something that's in the public domain and is provided in your other services for free?

Why should you pay $10? If Logos isn't $10 better than other apps, use the other apps. If it is, then pay the $10.

Posts 21574
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 4:08 AM

Mark Barnes:

Graham Criddle:
This is a licensing constraint - Faithlife are able to provide free online access to certain resources (which is why they are available on biblia and in the mobile apps - but you will see you can't download them into the mobile app) but not for resources which are downloaded to your device as they are in the desktop application.

It's not just licencing, it's also a business decision. The KJV is public domain in the US (although not in the UK). Logos have chosen to provide a few Bibles for free for download on desktop, but not the KJV.

Thanks Mark

Appreciate the clarification

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 5:50 AM

Graham Criddle:
 This is a licensing constraint - Faithlife are able to provide free online access to certain resources (which is why they are available on biblia and in the mobile apps - but you will see you can't download them into the mobile app) but not for resources which are downloaded to your device as they are in the desktop application. 

Actually, I can and have downloaded several resources to my device.

Graham Criddle:
 Yes - but you will need to purchase the resource first. 

That's kind of my point, I don't need to do that on the mobile device.

Graham Criddle:
 These datasets are only available as part of base packages or crossgrades - not for individual purchase. The price shown is an "indication of value" 

Actually, there is no price shown, and I'm not paying hundreds of dollars for these features.  I'm just a layman wanting to use the tools provided on his mobile device on his desktop.  All those resources and tools are provided on different Faithlife products that are available from the desktop, but they are available in one place (which is what is needed to make them actually useful).

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 6:16 AM

Mark Barnes:
Logos have chosen to provide a few Bibles for free for download on desktop, but not the KJV. 

No, actually, there are no Bibles provided for free download on the desktop.  The closest thing is the Faithlife Study Bible notes, but that's just the notes, not the actual Bible text.  Of all things to provide for free download, I would think the KJV would be the most obvious because (I believe) it's the most popular translation available in the public domain.

Mark Barnes:
 Why should you pay $10? If Logos isn't $10 better than other apps, use the other apps. If it is, then pay the $10. 

It's not that simple.  I use Logos because it's the only way to highlight and take notes on individual words.  Furthermore, even if some other service offered similar highlighting and note-taking capabilities, Logos already has all the notes and highlights I've entered from the phone (which are actually quite extensive) with no way to export them, so switching would be a ton of work.

Ultimately, the fact of the matter is that it would cost them nothing to include the KJV in the desktop application, so charging $10 for it makes no sense.  If they wanted to make $10 off of people downloading the Core Engine, why not charge for the download and include the KJV and maybe a few other resources along with it instead of offering it as a free download with (essentially) no resources and charging for the resources?  The point is that it would seem that the purpose of the Core Engine's availability is to give people the ability to try the Logos product out and see if it meets their needs before investing hundreds of dollars in the full suite.  Furthermore, it seems that there should be an option for layman like me who don't need access to a whole library of commentaries that is either very cheap or free, since not many laymen are going to be spending hundreds of dollars on Bible software to take notes.  However, the Core Engine has utterly failed at achieving these things because there is no way to see what any of the features can do even in a limited sense without a Bible text to try them out on.

Posts 665
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 6:51 AM

You can get a few thousand resources for free here, including the Lexham English Bible.

This bundle is particularly worthwhile.

I appreciate that you're frustrated at not being able to get your preferred resource for free on your preferred format, but I think Logos is more than generous with their freebies.

Posts 2139
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 6:52 AM

The KJV was free in the past, but no longer is. It might be possible to still make use of the old download. I've never tried- no guarantee...

Here you can get the Nelson ebible sampler for Logos 3:

https://wiki.logos.com/free_logos_books

Try the following: uninstall Logos 6, install the sampler, update Logos 3 back to Logos 6. Hopefully it will transfer the Logos 3 license.

The Lexham English Bible is also free, but you need to get the license from Faithlife.com, not logos.com.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 2756
Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 6:55 AM

Look at it another way. It's true that the KJV is in public domain and free to download for many of us, but that public domain status is for the Bible only, with no special integration features. You can even get a free KJV in paper or leather in many cases, but you will not get the premium leather, fancy case, or initials/name engraved on it.

$10 is really not that much considering what spending that $10 will allow you to do more efficiently. Even if you have to save up for a few months or give up a few coffees, I'm sure it will be worth it. I consider myself a layman also, as I am not a pastor, teacher, or minister in any official capacity, but each of us do have a ministry that involves study and spreading the Word in some way. Logos has made my study, understanding, and spreading the Word easier, and it is well worth the investment at any level. And, of course, we all have a covering (layman or not), as we can't just go out spreading the Word and teaching, without knowing if we are doing it right.

All this to say that a $10 investment for this is not much at all, considering it's purpose, and I encourage you to spend the $10 and call it a day (figure of speech),

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 7:32 AM

James McAdams:
You can get a few thousand resources for free here, including the Lexham English Bible.

Actually, that's even more frustrating.  They are giving away 62 (which is much less than "a few thousand", by the way) resources that would normally cost money, but one resource that costs them nothing they are charging $10 for.  I appreciate that they are indeed generous with their freebies, but that doesn't excuse their doing it in a way that is obviously going to result in people being frustrated.

Posts 165
Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 7:34 AM

Tim,

First let me say that I share a number of your frustrations. I also fealt (notice the past tense) the same concerning at least the KJV.

I too am a user of the free desktop engine (actually right now I have the LOGOS Colud for a year). I use that to read the books used in the Berean School of the Bible program (Those books are the main reason I use LOGOS).

Second, you are incorrect to say that there are no free bibles fot the desktop. The Lexham English Bible IS free. Not just the study bible notes, but the whole bible. That resource has all of the tagging included in it.

Third, You can make your own KJV bible by using the Personal Books feature in LOGOS. This would allow you to apply the notes you want to make to a single word possible. The personal books are also searchable.

What you will not get is the added value that LOGOS has put into their electronic version of the  KJV (or any of their books for that matter). In the case of a public domain work, it is that added value you are paying for. Features as simple as turning on or off strong's numbers don't just show up. Those features have to be built in. It cost money for someone to do that, and those workers deserve to be paid for their work.

Even a simple, do nothing but read the text type book (with no added value), has to be input into electronic form, proofread, have text conversion errors corrected, and tagged for just the book/chapter/verse numbers to function (unless you want an electronic bible that you can't look up a verse by its' reference (then all you are truly doing is reading text).

Consider 1 Timothy 5:18:  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

As I stated at the start, I do share some of your frustrations, but I have also come to realize just how difficult it is to make your own Bible and get even just the Book/Chapter/Verse references to work. I have made my own KJV and other bibles for LOGOS (and other Bible Study software systems).

It's work, and MY time is well worth spending the 10 dollars. I bet you would find your time to be of the same value.

Respectfully

Roy

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 7:44 AM

Erwin Stull, Sr.:
Look at it another way. It's true that the KJV is in public domain and free to download for many of us, but that public domain status is for the Bible only, with no special integration features. You can even get a free KJV in paper or leather in many cases, but you will not get the premium leather, fancy case, or initials/name engraved on it.

$10 is really not that much considering what spending that $10 will allow you to do more efficiently. Even if you have to save up for a few months or give up a few coffees, I'm sure it will be worth it. I consider myself a layman also, as I am not a pastor, teacher, or minister in any official capacity, but each of us do have a ministry that involves study and spreading the Word in some way. Logos has made my study, understanding, and spreading the Word easier, and it is well worth the investment at any level. And, of course, we all have a covering (layman or not), as we can't just go out spreading the Word and teaching, without knowing if we are doing it right.

All this to say that a $10 investment for this is not much at all, considering it's purpose, and I encourage you to spend the $10 and call it a day (figure of speech), 

The point is that I have certain resources in my library on my mobile device.  Those resources aren't available in my library on other devices.  I thought my library was supposed to sync between devices.  They clearly can do it, because they have in the past.  Furthermore, they clearly can do it today because they do it on other products today.  It would literally cost them nothing to include the KJV as a free resource.  In fact, why not make one of the obscure resources they are currently offering for free right now cost $10 and make the KJV free?

P.S. I don't waste my money on coffee either.

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 7:50 AM

Roy:

Tim,

First let me say that I share a number of your frustrations. I also fealt (notice the past tense) the same concerning at least the KJV.

I too am a user of the free desktop engine (actually right now I have the LOGOS Colud for a year). I use that to read the books used in the Berean School of the Bible program (Those books are the main reason I use LOGOS).

Second, you are incorrect to say that there are no free bibles fot the desktop. The Lexham English Bible IS free. Not just the study bible notes, but the whole bible. That resource has all of the tagging included in it.

Third, You can make your own KJV bible by using the Personal Books feature in LOGOS. This would allow you to apply the notes you want to make to a single word possible. The personal books are also searchable.

What you will not get is the added value that LOGOS has put into their electronic version of the  KJV (or any of their books for that matter). In the case of a public domain work, it is that added value you are paying for. Features as simple as turning on or off strong's numbers don't just show up. Those features have to be built in. It cost money for someone to do that, and those workers deserve to be paid for their work.

Even a simple, do nothing but read the text type book (with no added value), has to be input into electronic form, proofread, have text conversion errors corrected, and tagged for just the book/chapter/verse numbers to function (unless you want an electronic bible that you can't look up a verse by its' reference (then all you are truly doing is reading text).

Consider 1 Timothy 5:18:  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

As I stated at the start, I do share some of your frustrations, but I have also come to realize just how difficult it is to make your own Bible and get even just the Book/Chapter/Verse references to work. I have made my own KJV and other bibles for LOGOS (and other Bible Study software systems).

It's work, and MY time is well worth spending the 10 dollars. I bet you would find your time to be of the same value.

Respectfully

Roy

I understand and appreciate that it cost money for them to integrate the features they have into KJV Bible.  However, it's already in my library, and I've made extensive notes and highlights in it.  I'm just asking that my library be synced across my devices.

Posts 665
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:01 AM

Tim Lewis:

James McAdams:
You can get a few thousand resources for free here, including the Lexham English Bible.

They are giving away 62 (which is much less than "a few thousand", by the way) 

The Pegasus bundles are huge - you'll get well over 62 resources from them! You might not be interested in the content, of course, but that's the bulk of whatI was referring to in my post - I've not looked at the numbers, though, in fairness - just said that off the top of my head.

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:08 AM

James McAdams:
The Pegasus bundles are huge - you'll get well over 62 resources from them! You might not be interested in the content, of course, but that's the bulk of what I was referring to in my post - I've not looked at the numbers, though, in fairness - just said that off the top of my head.

Ah, I see.  It just seems like it would be much more logical to charge for obscure resources like the Pegasus bundles and give away the KJV than the other way around.

And even if they don't want to do that, it seems like they should at least keep my library in sync.  Are they going to make me pay $10 to get the Pegasus bundle on my phone?  I doubt they would, but then again, that's exactly what I would have said about getting the KJV on the desktop.

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:10 AM

Tim Lewis:
The point is that I have certain resources in my library on my mobile device.  Those resources aren't available in my library on other devices.  I thought my library was supposed to sync between devices.

Everyone has free access to certain books on mobile devices as long as they are online. The kjv is one of them. However, they are not part of your library unless you have purchased them (even if you "purchase" them for free, as can be done with the Lexham English Bible). Resources that have not been purchased cannot be downloaded on mobile devices for offline access and are not available at all on the desktop. Of course, resources that have been purchased (and thus are actually part of your library) can be downloaded on mobile and are also available on the desktop. Hope this helps clarify! 

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:17 AM

Matthew:
Resources that have not been purchased cannot be downloaded on mobile devices for offline access and are not available at all on the desktop. Of course, resources that have been purchased (and thus are actually part of your library) can be downloaded on mobile and are also available on the desktop.

I have the KJV Bible downloaded on my phone (I can access it, make highlights, create notes, etc. without internet access), though I don't recall purchasing it.  And yet, I am being told that I have to pay $10 for it to get it on the desktop (and yes, I am signed in with the same account both on my phone, on the web, and in the desktop application). To be clear, I can see notes and highlights I've made, but it won't let me navigate to the location it is connected to because it says I don't have access to that resource (I'm not in front of that computer at the moment, so that's not an exact quote, but it's something like that).

Posts 2139
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:29 AM

Tim Lewis:

Ah, I see.  It just seems like it would be much more logical to charge for obscure resources like the Pegasus bundles and give away the KJV than the other way around.

Actually it's Perseus not Pegasus. The Perseus bundle has almost no tagging, therefore it was very inexpensive to produce. It serves as a target for tagging in many places though.

The KJV on the other hand has extensive tagging on each and every single word. I assume that's the main reason why it's no longer free.

Tim Lewis:

And even if they don't want to do that, it seems like they should at least keep my library in sync.  Are they going to make me pay $10 to get the Pegasus bundle on my phone?  I doubt they would, but then again, that's exactly what I would have said about getting the KJV on the desktop.

About 95% of all resources that you purchase (for $0 or at cost) is available both on mobile and desktop without additional cost. It says on each product details page whether you can download it to mobile as well.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 27
Tim Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:37 AM

Jan Krohn:
About 95% of all resources that you purchase (for $0 or at cost) is available both on mobile and desktop without additional cost.

So basically, all of them except the KJV.  Nice.

Posts 9812
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2016 8:51 AM

Jan Krohn:

Tim Lewis:

Ah, I see.  It just seems like it would be much more logical to charge for obscure resources like the Pegasus bundles and give away the KJV than the other way around.

Actually it's Perseus not Pegasus. The Perseus bundle has almost no tagging, therefore it was very inexpensive to produce.

To be a bit more precise: almost no Faithlife-produced tagging (e.g. links to works cited). The Perseus resources come with a pre-built tagging, including morph-tagging for Greek language resources which may show all theoretically possible forms (e.g. for a neutrum gender substantive, the forms would list the nominative and the accusative case as possible forms, since they always look the same) - as opposed to the tagging Faithlife produces for such texts, where in-house scholars decide manually.

Note that Perseus and the other large bundles of free books are directed at people (lay men or no) who are interested in historical documents - users should make an informed decision whether they want those books or not, before downloading GB of books that they only get annoyed over. The free Lexham Bundle, on the other hand, contains current top-of-the-line resources that are a real gift of Faithlife to the users and may be all someone needs to perform in-depth bible study. It contains the LEB. If someone likes another bible best, they should be willing to spend the - usually small - amount to add that to their library.  

Jan Krohn:

About 95% of all resources that you purchase (for $0 or at cost) is available both on mobile and desktop without additional cost. It says on each product details page whether you can download it to mobile as well.

The small percentage (agree: it's < 5%) of resources that are not available on mobile are not licensed for that by the publisher - there's no scheme "pay more/again to get this book on another platform" which is one of the great benefits of having them in the Logos universe.

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Page 1 of 2 (38 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS