Bug -- Look up not working when it is really needed.

Page 1 of 1 (13 items)
This post has 12 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 4722
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2016 3:05 AM

Due to both poor vocabulary and poor memory I often read with the resource in one panel and a dictionary in the other.

Today I was reading this passage...

Look up for 'jeu d'esprit' and 'rapprochement' produced no results!

Surprised by this I did a search of the dictionary (Collins English) only to find that both words were listed.

I am slightly interested in why 'Lookup' failed. Neither of the terms is arcane, gnostic, or obscure and, after all, had I been in almost any programme other than Logos the built in dictionary would have been most helpful.

I am hugely interested when this basic problem is to be fixed.

Posts 10554
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 6:53 AM

Mike,

I don't know whether it's the reason in your case, but it would fit easily if those two words were tagged with language French - if you don't own a French dictionary/lexicon, lookup will fail. This is a common issue.

Hope this helps,

Mick

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 6:57 AM

NB.Mick:
I don't know whether it's the reason in your case, but it would fit easily if those two words were tagged with language French - if you don't own a French dictionary/lexicon, lookup will fail. This is a common issue.

I have often wished for a way to do a lookup in all dictionaries regardless of language.  Sometimes the problem is reversed, i.e., a Latin word not tagged as Latin, so I can't look it up in a Latin lexicon.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 10554
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 7:12 AM

Todd Phillips:

NB.Mick:
I don't know whether it's the reason in your case, but it would fit easily if those two words were tagged with language French - if you don't own a French dictionary/lexicon, lookup will fail. This is a common issue.

I have often wished for a way to do a lookup in all dictionaries regardless of language.  Sometimes the problem is reversed, i.e., a Latin word not tagged as Latin, so I can't look it up in a Latin lexicon.

I think the basic idea of having lookup working against the tagged language is good (especially since much theological literature uses Greek, Hebrew, Latin, German, French etc untranslated). When the lookup does not turn up a result, it would be good to lookup the other dictionaries (maybe in the order of resource language, GUI language, any language).

The reason we don't have that - from the programming side - might be the point of calling a routine "fire and forget" or interpreting a result code and then reacting differently, which requires more effort but also potentially more runtime.    

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 4722
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 9:05 AM

NB.Mick:

Mike,

I don't know whether it's the reason in your case, but it would fit easily if those two words were tagged with language French - if you don't own a French dictionary/lexicon, lookup will fail. This is a common issue.

Hope this helps,

Mick

Thanks Mick -- 

But I don't think that I should need to own a different dictionary when the word/s are both in the English dictionaries that I already have.

The whole point of having a program like Logos, for novices like myself, is that we can look up stuff and find out what it means.

Not only do I think that Logos should start and run through everything that can vaguely be referred to as a dictionary to discover a definition for me -- having failed at that it should pop up with a message similar to...

'Logos cannot find this word/phrase in any of your dictionaries but the word/phrase is used on some of your other resources. Would you like a list of these occurrences?

Posts 28708
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 9:50 AM

I agree with you Mike. The problem has two sides:

  • words that are borrowed into a language - when do they become words in the borrowing language
  • words that are transliterated so that Logos does not know what dictionary to look them up in

I like the idea of a default "look in all dictionaries" but it has to be clearly distinguished so that we use common sense in interpreting the results -"die" doesn't have the same meaning in English and German.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10554
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 10:02 AM

Mike Binks:

NB.Mick:

Mike,

I don't know whether it's the reason in your case, but it would fit easily if those two words were tagged with language French - if you don't own a French dictionary/lexicon, lookup will fail. This is a common issue.

Hope this helps,

Mick

Thanks Mick -- 

But I don't think that I should need to own a different dictionary when the word/s are both in the English dictionaries that I already have.

The whole point of having a program like Logos, for novices like myself, is that we can look up stuff and find out what it means.

no need for the "but" - I don't disagree with you about that at all, just pointed out the likely reason for what you are seeing, with which I'm not satisfied either. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 4722
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 2:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
I like the idea of a default "look in all dictionaries" but it has to be clearly distinguished so that we use common sense in interpreting the results -"die" doesn't have the same meaning in English and German.

The model I would like is 

'die' - tagged as English (due to the sense with which it is being used) found in English Dictionary - result - English definition (perhaps with an option to investigate definitions in other languages)

'die' - tagged as German (due to the sense with which it is being used) found in German Dictionary - result German definition (perhaps with an option to investigate definitions in other languages)

'jeu d'esprit' tagged as french (ok it is French) so french definition (hopefully served in English ( or American)) due to the language set on the computer).

'rapprochement' do the French even have a word for harmonious relations?

Posts 28708
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 2:47 PM

I have a slightly different take on the matter. I would like to have the dictionaries show the definition in the language it is tagged as being ... but priorities should be able to handle our difference. The reason I used "die' as an example is that I know from testing the concordance feature that titles of journals are often not tagged with the language of the title - and "die" was often in a journal title. Unfortunately on such things, Logos seems slow on the retagging.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13392
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 21 2016 3:41 PM

We've discussed similar issues before, but it's worth repeating that the workaround is to type lookup rapprochement in the command box.

It's also worth pointing out that most occurrences like this would not be tagged as 'French'. I have 45 French rapprochements, and 1,472 English ones. It's been tagged as French because the author of the original resource has used italics to indicate that it's a non-English word. In that sense, his/her wishes have been respected.

(That doesn't necessarily mean Logos shouldn't attempt an English definition if it couldn't find a French one, but it does provide some context.)

Posts 4722
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2016 12:32 AM

Mark Barnes:
We've discussed similar issues before, but it's worth repeating that the workaround is to type lookup rapprochement in the command box.

Indeed; and it works for 'jeu d’esprit'. That is the 'workaround' the solution is for the developers to incorporate that into action taken when you select 'Lookup' from the right click menu. It also requires that 'word combinations' such as 'jeu d’esprit' be recognised as having a definition.

I guess non-english speakers might also need 'word combinations' such as 'sick as a parrot' to be defined in their native tongue.

Mark Barnes:

It's also worth pointing out that most occurrences like this would not be tagged as 'French'. I have 45 French rapprochements, and 1,472 English ones. It's been tagged as French because the author of the original resource has used italics to indicate that it's a non-English word. In that sense, his/her wishes have been respected.

(That doesn't necessarily mean Logos shouldn't attempt an English definition if it couldn't find a French one, but it does provide some context.)

I guess that the problem has actually been pretty well defined and the required behaviour outlined -- it would be really good if the developers would comment on how arduous  making the necessary changes to the program would be. Once the changes are completed the program would perform a little closer to the advertising hype.

Posts 13392
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 3 2016 3:05 AM

This is reported as fixed in 6.10 beta 1. It works for double-click and lookup, but not for Power Lookup.

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 3 2016 5:59 AM

Mike Binks:
I guess non-english speakers might also need 'word combinations' such as 'sick as a parrot' to be defined in their native tongue.

What is the origin of the phrase 'as sick as a parrot'?

The Guardian

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Page 1 of 1 (13 items) | RSS