Logos just cancelled the pre-pub for "The Sermons and Lectures of John Calvin in English (29 vols.)"

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This post has 28 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 104
David Miller | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Feb 22 2016 3:15 PM

Seriously? Really?

Logos, how about just offering them for purchase and let's forget the pre-pub.  How in the world could that get cancelled?

Posts 2221
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 3:44 PM

I just got a cancel notice on two Neusner pre-pubs. Apparently things are being tightened up to keep up with things that are more important and or better use Logos production.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 3:46 PM

David Miller:
How in the world could that get cancelled?

How? Because not enough people pre-ordered them. While they are not of personal interest to me, I agree that they are fundamental resources that should be available. I had some favorite resources cancelled which I suspect failed because they were not well known and came in bundles rather than letting people try a volume to discover their worth. So where do we go from here? We have some options:

  • watch prepubs closely and push those we view as valuable to all the Logos users we know
  • use UserVoice to prove that there is now a demand for a resource even if it previously was cut
  • push resources that reference a given resource to build demand for it
  • encourage Bob to pursue some sort of crowd funding for projects where the initial demand is insufficient
  • .... <add your ideas here>

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 3:58 PM

It seems a little odd to me when the whole picture is viewed:

1. Resources are only published if some level of users "commit" to them (even if they may be perceived as foundational to at least some users in a given denomination);

2. Features are added which users are not asking for (not saying they are bad, just saying)

3. Features that users seem very interested in (UserVoice) are not as a matter of policy implemented just because they have proven to be popular;

4. Bugs that have long cried out for repair (not all) on the forums do not seem to get timely attention.

All 4 of these topics require money, resource, and redirect both money and resource from other ventures. But in some cases Faithlife only proceeds with significant user commitment, in other cases they appear not to listen to users' desires.

Resources not popular today could move the product into greater acceptance with people of a particular worship discipline. Features could do the same. Faithlife seems to embrace the latter strategy more than the former IMHO.

The message is murky to me, maybe it's just a question of "we can't do it all, so we'll pick our poison" - invest in features and not in resources. Or maybe it's as simple as the profit is better for features compared to resources, where license/royalty fees must be paid and contracts restrict complete freedom in how Faithlife uses them?

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:06 PM

I don't understand why they can't leave a resource in pre-pub indefinitely. It doesn't cost them anything. If one succeeds, then they have the funds to produce the resource.

Posts 1933
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:27 PM

William Gabriel:

I don't understand why they can't leave a resource in pre-pub indefinitely. It doesn't cost them anything. If one succeeds, then they have the funds to produce the resource.

I agree.  As more people use Logos, there will be more diversity.  So what is not popular today, maybe popular to a group of Logos users 5 years from now.  Perhaps they could have gotten creative and started a new page of pre-pub resources that languished for a time, and called it pre-pub wishes or something like that.  Or they could have a pre-pub Vyrso page or a gathering interest for a resource page.  But to cut off a resource and use language that it will never be considered for publication....that seems very odd.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:28 PM

William Gabriel:
I don't understand why they can't leave a resource in pre-pub indefinitely. It doesn't cost them anything.

I asked that question, got a response and still agree with you ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:29 PM

William Gabriel:

I don't understand why they can't leave a resource in pre-pub indefinitely. It doesn't cost them anything. If one succeeds, then they have the funds to produce the resource.

Initially I can see how one might think that it doesn't cost Faithlife to leave a pre-pub indefinitely but I think that it costs them (and everyone by extension) because I think it clogs up the system. Most people will only bid on a limited number of resources and the more there are the less likely resources will receive support. I know that is the case with me. I used to carefully consider each pre-pub but now I hardly look at them as there just are too many and my budget is limited.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:37 PM

Don Awalt:
3. Features that users seem very interested in (UserVoice) are not as a matter of policy implemented just because they have proven to be popular;

The company that I have seen use a mechanism similar to UserVoice well, notes when an item is added:

  • whether it is a small, medium or large project
  • if it is contradictory to other requests

What we have in UserVoice is a mishmash of projects that have a high probability of being implemented, items that belong more appropriately in bug repairs rather than feature requests and ideas that are ill-defined to the point I don't know what to make of them. What we need is a periodic review that:

  • merges duplicate requests
  • clarifies ambiguous requests
  • identifies requests that are large because they require changes to the underlying infastructure.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1415
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 4:45 PM

why wouldn't Faithlife transfer cancelled  prepubs to Vyrso.  It would be wi-win

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 104
David Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 5:19 PM

What's really aggravating is the reasoning in the email that it's so I can concentrate my money on other prepubs.  I'm already into all the prepubs I want.  I won't spend one more dollar after all the prepubs Logos cancelled.  

Logos, you should dialogue with your customers instead of this heavy handed route.

I can't even recall Logos seeing out an email advertising The Sermons and Lectures of John Calvin.  A huge missed opportunity was that this wasn't part of the Calvin 500?

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 5:24 PM

David Miller:

What's really aggravating is the reasoning in the email that it's so I can concentrate my money on other prepubs.  I'm already into all the prepubs I want.  I won't spend one more dollar after all the prepubs Logos cancelled.  

Logos, you should dialogue with your customers instead of this heavy handed route.

I can't even recall Logos seeing out an email advertising The Sermons and Lectures of John Calvin.  A huge missed opportunity was that this wasn't part of the Calvin 500?

I agree with this. My thought was not, "oh well I can spend that money elsewhere" so much as "well I guess I'm on the hook for less."

With the unpredictable nature of pre-pub releases, I'm not going to commit cash now that was really just an unknown future cash flow.

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 5:38 PM

There are some good ideas in this thread: separate pre-pub page for languishing products and moving them to Vyrso. Hopefully Faithlife is willing to use an idea like this or come up with something more creative than canceling products.

Posts 2221
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 5:45 PM

I am not sure of all the reasons behind cancellation, but there are always some real gems that do need our support. There are also the endless new editions of favorites vying for a place at the table. You can't do everything. I hope there's redirection to more core and scholarly works.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 5:56 PM

David Miller:

What's really aggravating is the reasoning in the email that it's so I can concentrate my money on other prepubs.  I'm already into all the prepubs I want.  I won't spend one more dollar after all the prepubs Logos cancelled.  

Logos, you should dialogue with your customers instead of this heavy handed route.

I can't even recall Logos seeing out an email advertising The Sermons and Lectures of John Calvin.  A huge missed opportunity was that this wasn't part of the Calvin 500?

Ditto.

Logos should be more apologetic than they are having to admit this disappointment to us, rather than telling us to focus our money elsewhere.  

Posts 2248
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 6:03 PM

Wild Eagle:

why wouldn't Faithlife transfer cancelled  prepubs to Vyrso.  It would be wi-win

Could work for a few of them, but not all. If no digital text of the original exists, that would require OCR, followed by a huge load of editing work to eliminate typos etc.

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Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 6:14 PM

Jan Krohn:

Wild Eagle:

why wouldn't Faithlife transfer cancelled  prepubs to Vyrso.  It would be wi-win

Could work for a few of them, but not all. If no digital text of the original exists, that would require OCR, followed by a huge load of editing work to eliminate typos etc.

If that's the case, and presumably it would be for Calvin titles, then why not put them on community pricing? I get the sense that CP works for titles they have to produce from text and PP works for titles from publishers that have the text in some kind of electronic format already. I placed a pre-pub order for these nearly two years ago. Why weren't these put on cp if they're public domain?

Posts 2248
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2016 6:23 PM

CP has the very same problem. A zillion resources struggle to reach 20%, and block people's budget for ages. I would not be surprised if they cleaned up that programme as well.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
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Posts 104
David Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2016 3:07 PM

Well, I spoke to Customer Service for about 15 minutes and voiced a number of my concerns.  They were polite and said I was not at all the only one that had called.

I made sure they understood how unhappy I am about all of this and said that I was surprised that Logos had never bothered to reach out to those who had bid on the pre-pub to know it was in trouble.  It's just all of a sudden "gone" one afternoon.  Very poorly handled.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2016 10:04 PM

I canceled pretty much everything but the journals.

Thats a two way street. went from a couple thousand to ~200$.

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