Noun with trailing Determiner

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Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 11 2016 8:28 AM

I am still very unclear how to use syntax search and I'm guessing that is the key to my question.  How do I find all NT occurrences of a noun followed by its determiner?

Posts 151
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 9:29 AM

Want to put a screen shot up of a example? That is always the most helpful for me to understand what someone is referencing.

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 9:54 AM

Romans 1:18 includes "ἀνθρώπων τῶν" which I believe is an example of an article trailing its noun.  I am trying to find all other NT examples.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 9:55 AM

Andrew:
How do I find all NT occurrences of a noun followed by its determiner?

Please provide an example verse to be found by syntax search or clarify question.

Searching Greek Grammar collection for "noun NEAR determiner" with exact word match found nothing.  Match all word forms found many results.  Are you looking for one of the examples in Greek Grammar beyond the Basics ?

Searching Hebrew Grammar collection for "noun NEAR determiner" with exact word match found two results.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 10:15 AM

Andrew:

Romans 1:18 includes "ἀνθρώπων τῶν" which I believe is an example of an article trailing its noun.  I am trying to find all other NT examples.

For Syntax Search, have learned to start with an example verse so can open Syntax Graph to see structure:

Cascadia has noun and determiner terminal nodes, which can be searched.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 10:35 AM

The morph search @N BEFORE 1 WORDS @D will get you started, I believe .... one needs to add to it an exclusion for phrases in which the next word is another noun. Probably not the neatest solution but ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 10:54 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Andrew:

Romans 1:18 includes "ἀνθρώπων τῶν" which I believe is an example of an article trailing its noun.  I am trying to find all other NT examples.

For Syntax Search, have learned to start with an example verse so can open Syntax Graph to see structure:

Cascadia has noun and determiner terminal nodes, which can be searched.

Keep Smiling Smile

How do I limit the search to only trailing determiners?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 11:27 AM

Andrew:
How do I limit the search to only trailing determiners?

Adding unordered increases results to 2,590 for noun and determiner (compared to 2,343 results for determiner trailing noun)

More ways to increase Syntax Search results are "matching skip levels" and "gap"

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 12:17 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
More ways to increase Syntax Search results are "matching skip levels" and "gap"

But isn't he trying to narrow down to only trailing?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 12:42 PM

Andrew:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Andrew:

Romans 1:18 includes "ἀνθρώπων τῶν" which I believe is an example of an article trailing its noun.  I am trying to find all other NT examples.

For Syntax Search, have learned to start with an example verse so can open Syntax Graph to see structure:

Cascadia has noun and determiner terminal nodes, which can be searched.

Keep Smiling Smile

How do I limit the search to only trailing determiners?

According to "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis", τῶν in Romans 1:18 is modifying κατεχόντων, not ἀνθρώπων.  In other words, the article is actually in front of the participle it modifies.

I have developed the following search and am wondering if it is too narrow (ie. is it returning all examples of nouns or participles modified by a subsequent article?)

(Technically, I would argue that "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" got it wrong and τὸν in "σωφρονοῦντα, τὸν ἐσχηκότα" of Mark 5:15 actually modifies ἐσχηκότα not σωφρονοῦντα.  However, it provides an example of the syntax I am seeking to find)

Posts 151
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 1:24 PM

Are you trying to find instances like Romans 1:18 where the specifier is preceded the main word? Does it mater if there are other constituents in between like here in Romans 1:18? 

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 1:33 PM

Ryan Robinson:

Are you trying to find instances like Romans 1:18 where the specifier is preceded the main word? Does it mater if there are other constituents in between like here in Romans 1:18

Yes, instances where the article is preceded by the word it modifies.  The two words would obviously need to agree in terms of number, case & gender but I don't care if there are other constituents between the word and its article.

Does the search in my screenshot above successfully capture all such occurrences or is it too narrow?

Posts 151
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 1:41 PM

Andrew:

Does the search in my screenshot above successfully capture all such occurrences or is it too narrow?

It seems that you're doing the opposite of what you're wanting. You have the specifier following the main word. If I'm understanding your request, and it definitely is what is happening in Romans 1:18, you should have it the other way around.

Posts 151
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 1:49 PM

Head term --> Modifer (Specifier) --> Word (article)
                |
                |-> Word

Sorry. Not able to screen shot this on the computer I'm on.

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 2:10 PM

Ryan Robinson:

Andrew:

Does the search in my screenshot above successfully capture all such occurrences or is it too narrow?

It seems that you're doing the opposite of what you're wanting. You have the specifier following the main word. If I'm understanding your request, and it definitely is what is happening in Romans 1:18, you should have it the other way around.

I'm looking for examples of the article following the word it modifies.

Posts 151
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 2:15 PM

ahhhh I didn't realize you were disagreeing opentext

I'll have to look a little further once I get a change. But, it's seeming that the query above is the way to go.

Was this just a random search? Where did you come up with the idea to do this search? For what purpose?

Posts 341
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 2:19 PM

Ryan Robinson:

ahhhh I didn't realize you were disagreeing opentext

I'll have to look a little further once I get a change. But, it's seeming that the query above is the way to go.

Was this just a random search? Where did you come up with the idea to do this search? For what purpose?

I initially misread Romans 1:18.  According to "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis", τῶν in Romans 1:18 is modifying κατεχόντων, not ἀνθρώπων.  In other words, the article is actually in front of the participle it modifies.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 10:34 PM

Andrew:
I have developed the following search and am wondering if it is too narrow (ie. is it returning all examples of nouns or participles modified by a subsequent article?)

Have found two OpenText.org syntax patterns of a word with subsequent articular modification; not know if more patterns exist.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2016 11:21 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Have found two OpenText.org syntax patterns of a word with subsequent articular modification; not know if more patterns exist.

Is Matthew 1:6 "the David the King" an example of a articular modification that should be included ?

Changing one word to be optional changes Syntax Search results from 23 to 481

MJ. Smith:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
More ways to increase Syntax Search results are "matching skip levels" and "gap"

But isn't he trying to narrow down to only trailing?

Embarrassed Apologies for tongue in cheek humor attempt.

Earlier Cascadia Syntax Search with 2,590 results had definite article after a word (trailing), which had nothing to filter.  An example is Matthew 1:6 "the David the King" where David and subsequent the were Syntax search results (the King modified David).  Caveat: Mark 5:15 was not found by earlier Cascadia Syntax Search.  Mark 5:15 has more than one trailing articular modification.

Adding "unordered" to Cascadia word group added results where article appeared before word.  Personally have experienced skip level enabling to cuase duplicative results (so use skip levels and gap with caution).

Suspect OpenText.org has more patterns of trailing articular modification patterns.  Result count of 481 for OpenText.org is less than 2,590 for Cascadia.

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Michael Meiser (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 13 2016 4:35 PM

Andrew:
I have developed the following search and am wondering if it is too narrow (ie. is it returning all examples of nouns or participles modified by a subsequent article?)

Andrew,

I don't think that your search of OpenText was too narrow. I think it found exactly what you were looking for. I also think that your conclusion was apt that OpenText marked this one incorrectly. If you look at this same verse in Cascadia, the article properly modifies the following participle as opposed to the preceding.

I could not for the life of me find any other instance of the article modifying the preceding noun/participle in either OpenText or Cascadia. Hope this helps.

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