B12 - IMO not worthy of release..

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This post has 59 Replies | 2 Followers

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:11 AM | Locked

Sorry if I seem rude and offensive, but this has to be the worst "release" I have encountered, and is not worthy of having been released it almost seems untested.

Notes:

Where has the nice pretty red delete gone, and what is this monstrosity meant to do?

If I click it it doesnt hide/show note content ,it does nothing except change the arrow direction, even in a new notefile

Ah and that where the delete function is now hidden, by clicking on it I get this popup

can we have our seperate delete button back please

For me this is worthy of the Beta Lemon award.. I respect your right to disagree

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:33 AM | Locked

DominicM:
can we have our seperate delete button back please

No, no, no keep this and add a hide/show function, a properties function (I already had a thread on that) ... This structure makes it harder to accidentally delete notes and, except in testing, I consider deleting notes to be a relatively uncommon action.

And while I have posted several bug reports, I am curious, Dominic, as to what problems make you say:

DominicM:
this has to be the worst "release" I have encountered, and is not worthy of having been released it almost seems untested.

I haven't seen that many bugs reported. Was I not watching?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:12 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
 I consider deleting notes to be a relatively uncommon action.

I delete regularly..

If Logos4 would allow drag and drop notes/clippings beween open files. 99% of my need for deleting would be removed and I would agree with you

I take notes into generic notefile and then later think about filing/categorising them or pulling then in to a seperate notefile I use for sermon prep,  so have to copy paste or go back and add a new clipping to right file.

MJ. Smith:
  I am curious, Dominic, as to what problems make you say:

DominicM:
this has to be the worst "release" I have encountered, and is not worthy of having been released it almost seems untested.

Sorry maybe i was a bit emotive, but back when I was employed full-time to develop software applications, I would have been given a written warning (severely disciplined) for releasing a non working function in an application.. 

MJ. Smith:
 

I haven't seen that many bugs reported. Was I not watching?

Thats the point, its not a fix, it's a new function, so unless the developer added it into the code last night.. just before the build.., if its non working it means it hasnt been tested (or it would have been found), hence my annoyance now.

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 3312
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:35 AM | Locked

I would a gree this needed a little more "think through" ya know :)

But I do think we would like what it could become, so don't give up.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:03 AM | Locked

DominicM:
Ah and that where the delete function is now hidden, by clicking on it I get this popup

can we have our seperate delete button back please

For me this is worthy of the Beta Lemon award.. I respect your right to disagree

I will exercise my right to disagree. I like this new arrangement. Now, if the Dev Team would add a show/hide feature for Martha…

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:43 AM | Locked

The button does have a secondary function. If you attach a note to text, you used to be stuck with the text as a title. Now attach not to a text, click this button, and you can add a title to that note.

Posts 149
David A. Peterson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:54 AM | Locked

Jack Caviness:
I like this new arrangement. Now, if the Dev Team would add a show/hide feature for Martha

For MJ's use. her posts or her in general???Wink

In Christ,

Dave (who probably thinks he's funnier than he is before the first Coffee

<><

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 6:15 AM | Locked

Philip Spitzer:

The button does have a secondary function. If you attach a note to text, you used to be stuck with the text as a title. Now attach not to a text, click this button, and you can add a title to that note.

Yeah I must be having a bad day, cos I think thats not "right" too..

I add note to word

 

then add a title through new button

 what I would expect it to do is this

otherwise I dont see the point, you can just add a top line to the note details...

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 4077
Melissa Snyder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 9:04 AM | Locked

I've reported your feedback -- thanks.

Posts 59
Todd White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 10:56 AM | Locked

DominicM:
If Logos4 would allow drag and drop notes/clippings beween open files. 99% of my need for deleting would be removed and I would agree with you

Do you want to:
Drag from notes to notes?
Drag from clppings to clippings?
Drag from clippings to notes?
Drag drom notes to clippings?
All of the above?

You should be able to drag from notes to notes.

-Todd

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 12:20 PM | Locked

Todd White:
You should be able to drag from notes to notes.

Sweet, thx for putting it in, have been trying drag and drop on notes, without success with each version up to 10 and had given up on it getting adopted, so didn't even try this release. thats gonna save me loads of time/greif...

For me, I would be happy if you could also do clippings->clippings. but I guess others might want cross-dragging

I also want to apologise, this is definietly not a lemon after all, the notes drag-drop is fantastic, and a great addition, and actually improves significantly the usability of the software.

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 12:27 PM | Locked

DominicM:
Sorry maybe i was a bit emotive, but back when I was employed full-time to develop software applications, I would have been given a written warning (severely disciplined) for releasing a non working function in an application.. 

While I understand your position here, my observation of the types of bugs we find leads me to suspect  that the programmers are not backed up by good testing software and test scripts i.e. that like most IT development, testing is treated as a second class cousin to making the product. Note: I speak from 30+ years of trying to get sufficient time for sufficient testing.

LATER NOTE: I really didn't mean to start a bash Logos development thread. I wanted to stop programmer-bashing.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 12:35 PM | Locked

True MJ,  I also remember that well.

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 19302
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 12:57 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

While I understand your position here, my observation of the types of bugs we find leads me to suspect  that the programmers are not backed up by good testing software and test scripts i.e. that like most IT development, testing is treated as a second class cousin to making the product. Note: I speak from 30+ years of trying to get sufficient time for sufficient testing.

I wonder whether they have dedicated testers or if the developers are doing all their own testing? Having a test team whose sole responsibility is to try to break it would stop a lot of these bugs in their tracks before they ever reached the beta testers (and non-beta users!). I think Logos might be relying on the beta test cycle as a way of avoiding needing to have their own in-house test team, or at least getting it out the door faster before sufficent testing has been done. I think that is a sloppy development process, but I can understand it given Logos's relative immaturity as a company. However now that they've hit the bigtime, I hope they will consider some more robust in-house testing strategies, regression testing, test scripts, test automation, whitebox testing, etc. If I were their Director of Development, I'd have a thing or two to teach them...

When I was working at Microsoft, we would never release "beta" versions that were still having new features added left and right. Beta was a stage we didn't enter until after we were feature complete. Even "alpha" was post feature complete. This is roughly the release cycle we used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

I must admit that the way Logos does things is really odd and unfortunate. I think they are realizing this with how all the support calls are killing their response time which they used to pride themselves in. I seriously think they should reconsider their testing and release strategy for future releases. Unfortunately, I think this model is deeply engrained in their DNA.

I also wish they had program managers to design the features instead of having it all be done by geeky developers. While L4 is a major improvement over L3 in usability, it is still very obviously a programmer's toy. Again, deeply engrained in Logos's DNA, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But it sure does make for a lot of extra work for us forum support and wiki editor types. Wonder what things would be like if we weren't here doing this?

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 1:30 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

DominicM:
Sorry maybe i was a bit emotive, but back when I was employed full-time to develop software applications, I would have been given a written warning (severely disciplined) for releasing a non working function in an application.. 

While I understand your position here, my observation of the types of bugs we find leads me to suspect  that the programmers are not backed up by good testing software and test scripts i.e. that like most IT development, testing is treated as a second class cousin to making the product. Note: I speak from 30+ years of trying to get sufficient time for sufficient testing.

I agree with y'all.  While I can only speak based on the years that I worked in computer development, it does appear to me that Logos 4 does not go through thorough testing.  What Logos released as 4.0a was at best a beta version.  With functions like printing not being part of the program, I would not even call the program fit to be called alpha.

What is being released as beta, let's say that I would not call it beta, or alpha, or . . ..

The cost of keeping a program in house until it is ready to be released is greatly lower than the cost of repairing the program once it has left the building.  Bob posted on his blog (http://www.bobpritchett.com/blog/2010/01/on_failing_our_customers.html) how they have failed in providing good customer support.  While this is my opinion, one of the reasons why they are still receiving complaints about the software comes from the fact that the software was (and continues) to be under tested before it goes out to the public.  Again my opinion, Bob is now paying the cost of releasing a product that was not tested (and continues not to be tested) thoroughly.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:18 PM | Locked

Personally, I think Logos is too customer driven at this point.

Every time a release comes out, everyone chimes in on how if they would only implement this or do it this way to save them an extra key click, or make it this color. Treating software development like it is a salad buffet at the local fast food place.

I have been astounded at how many of these suggestions are actually being implemented by the Logos developers and then everyone complains because the releases are so buggy. I have never worked in a development environment that functioned like that.

The trouble is Logos has already started down this path, and going backwards is really hard. But not half as hard as convincing people that their favorite idea is too expensive or complicated to implement. So I guess, I will just have to make sure I am not part of the problem.

 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:33 PM | Locked

Terry Poperszky:
or make it this color

 

I vote to make all of Terry's posts appear Neon Green.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:39 PM | Locked

I'll humbly throw my two cents in, I think this will all work out fine.  Logos 4 is built on a great foundation that should bring nothing but more power and capability to bear in more features over the next 5 years. Everyone's computer will get faster, and most of the performance problems will just go away due to technology. 

As for the bugs and features, I felt at the time in December that Logos 4 was out a year early. Now I understand at some point you put your stick in the ground and the urgency of a released product helps make things better, but for no other reason than a long list of ver.3 features not yet implemented well, I have NEVER seen that in a commerical product.  So it will take a year to fully have all of ver 3 implemented, have all the great features we already see and more in ver 4, and a lot of the bugs squashed and things stabilized.

If we are having this discussion a year from now I will be shocked.  But IMHO it will take this whole year to get there.  The nice thing, I love what we have in ver 4 already, and I upgraded when I decided I could take some pain for all the new stuff.  It will be fine. (and I love the betas, it allows us to engage in the process quicker).

Posts 916
Tim Hensler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:50 PM | Locked

I don't think Logos is sending out incomplete, untested programs, but inviting us (the beta testers) into their lab to help.  We are the testers - what a treat.  Thank you Logos. (By the way, Logos does pre-test before releasing versions to us.)

As beta versions go, these aren't bad - actually pretty stable.  I've never had a system crash and it's been a while since I've had a program crash.  I have a 3 year old laptop that doesn't move as fast as I'd like, but considering what all the Logos software is doing under the keyboard I'm impressed.  Most of my problems are with the carbon unit in front of the keyboard. (Get it?  Carbon life form?  Me, the human?  Never mind.)

We need to give Logos all the feedback we can - it's their choice if and when it goes in.  Their customer service sensitivity is a refreshing change from most providers out there.  What impresses me is their ability to accommodate the needs and desires of their core users - those of us crazy enough to study, prepare and present God's Word using beta software (with the back-up of Logos 3 and hard-copy just in case but rarely used).  Even accommodating conflicting features by making them options we can choose from.  Choice is good.

I got excited when I saw the little red delete button for notes was replaced by a menu - promise/hope of cool future features!  One function at a time is fine with me! - keep 'em coming (once a week works for me).  I use notes a lot - very heavy user in Logos 3.  I used all the notes features and am looking for them in Logos 4.

Thank you Logos for the drag-and-drop from note to note - I too had been watching for but stopped trying it a few versions ago.  Glad its in. 

Clippings to Clippings would be helpful too.

Ephesians 5:20-21

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:11 PM | Locked

Dan DeVilder:
I vote to make all of Terry's posts appear Neon Green.

 

Tangerine orange or nothing!

 

 

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