B12 - IMO not worthy of release..

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:14 PM | Locked

Who is Job Big Smile

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 4:39 PM | Locked

Tim Hensler:

I don't think Logos is sending out incomplete, untested programs, but inviting us (the beta testers) into their lab to help.  We are the testers - what a treat.  Thank you Logos. (By the way, Logos does pre-test before releasing versions to us.)

As beta versions go, these aren't bad - actually pretty stable.  I've never had a system crash and it's been a while since I've had a program crash.  I have a 3 year old laptop that doesn't move as fast as I'd like, but considering what all the Logos software is doing under the keyboard I'm impressed.  Most of my problems are with the carbon unit in front of the keyboard. (Get it?  Carbon life form?  Me, the human?  Never mind.)

We need to give Logos all the feedback we can - it's their choice if and when it goes in.  Their customer service sensitivity is a refreshing change from most providers out there.  What impresses me is their ability to accommodate the needs and desires of their core users - those of us crazy enough to study, prepare and present God's Word using beta software (with the back-up of Logos 3 and hard-copy just in case but rarely used).  Even accommodating conflicting features by making them options we can choose from.  Choice is good.

I got excited when I saw the little red delete button for notes was replaced by a menu - promise/hope of cool future features!  One function at a time is fine with me! - keep 'em coming (once a week works for me).  I use notes a lot - very heavy user in Logos 3.  I used all the notes features and am looking for them in Logos 4.

Thank you Logos for the drag-and-drop from note to note - I too had been watching for but stopped trying it a few versions ago.  Glad its in. 

Clippings to Clippings would be helpful too.

Ephesians 5:20-21

 

Nice post, Tim.  My sentiments exactly: I think most of your problems are in the carbon unite . . . .

 

har har.

 

Seriously, nice post, and I agree.  I am definitely not a techie, and I appreciate the viewpoints of those who have worked in the field: it is normal to form opinions and expectations.  But I am pretty stoked about L4, even with the Notes and handouts issues.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 4:51 AM | Locked

Quote:

When I was working at Microsoft, we would never release "beta" versions that were still having new features added left and right. Beta was a stage we didn't enter until after we were feature complete. Even "alpha" was post feature complete. This is roughly the release cycle we used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

I must admit that the way Logos does things is really odd and unfortunate.

Rosie,

Just a thought:

Its' neither odd nor unfortunate in my view, but instead it's a viable stragety to the "old way" of doing things.

Bradley had posted a long explanation of why they have gone the way that they have, (and there are a lot of good reasons for doing so)....and he pointed out that many software companies are doing exactly what Logos is doing.

 

times change... :)

 From wiki on beta softare:

As the Internet has allowed for rapid and inexpensive distribution of software, companies have begun to take a more loose approach to use of the word "beta". [1] Netscape Communications was infamous for releasing alpha level versions of its Netscape web browser to the public and calling them "beta" releases. In February 2005, ZDNet published an article about the recent phenomenon of a beta version often staying for years and being used as if it were in production-level [2]. It noted that Gmail and Google News, for example, had been in beta for a long period of time and were not expected to drop the beta status despite the fact that they were widely used; however, Google News did leave beta in January 2006, followed by Google Apps, including Gmail, in July 2009.[3]. This technique may also allow a developer to delay offering full support and/or responsibility for remaining issues. In the context of Web 2.0, people even talk of perpetual betas to signify that some software is meant to stay in beta state. Also, "beta" is sometimes used to indicate something more like a release candidate such as the LittleBigPlanet public beta.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 6:27 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Its' neither odd nor unfortunate in my view, but instead it's a viable stragety to the "old way" of doing things.

Bradley had posted a long explanation of why they have gone the way that they have, (and there are a lot of good reasons for doing so)....and he pointed out that many software companies are doing exactly what Logos is doing.

times change... :)

Can you provide a link to Bradley's post?

Times change but the customer's perception of what they should be receiving has not, especially when they have paid for it (I'm talking about the product so the "software is free" argument is irrelevant). Therefore the development strategy still has an objective measure of its effectiveness and no company can afford to ignore it. Calling a released product a beta is actually a good strategy IF the product works because it has lowered the customer's expectations somewhat -  "Oh, it's somewhat buggy but what can you expect from a beta"! Therefore you can't ignore the perception of customers who know that a product is buggy and should be called a beta. Likewise, it would be short-sighted to ignore the perceptions of ex-developers (Rosie?, Martha) AND myself that the strategy is not working very well. Those "old ways" didn't come without a fight from management that they couldn't afford the overhead of quality assurance (QA), but they quickly realised that they needed to budget for QA at all levels, not just the obvious overhead of specialist staff. On multi-billion dollar projects regression testing scenarios were vital to ongoing confidence in the product over a long period of development. B8 proves that point as it introduced a bug into the elementary Library sort functions and B9 was released the next day! PRA development should have received more in-house testing ... there are other things that are obvious to IT professionals looking at the results and responses that the development strategy is fostering.

But I'm confident that the QA bar has been lifted as I think B12 was slated to be a RC but the merge functionality still has a couple of bugs, and this has been very costly with the number of rebuilds of user installations in 4.0a. Then there has been a desire to get PRA's working right and clean up some old issues.

 

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 8:29 AM | Locked

It seems to me that with the number of pre-pub (Zondervan) about to go out Logos' virtual door it would behoove them to get 4.0b with its merge index fixes out the door or if they can't get it up to quality standards soon, roll those indexer fixes into another SR for 4.0a. The update to the Galaxie journals demonstrated the mass havoc that indexer's bugs can cause. I am anticipating another wave as the Calvin 500 collection (that's a lot of info!) triggers merge indexes in 4.0a installations.

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 8:29 AM | Locked

Jack Caviness:
Now, if the Dev Team would add a show/hide feature for Martha…

I'm with those that think this might be overkill--and even scary if they could implement it!

Besides, we LIKE Martha!

Big Smile

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 9:25 AM | Locked

Dave Hooton:
Can you provide a link to Bradley's post?

 

Dave,

I looked and looked and can't find it.

I even checked wikipedia to see if I could remember which one it was....no dice.

Possibly Bradley could point us to it again?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3673
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 9:38 AM | Locked

I suppose we could ask that Terry's post be any color we want, as long as the font is the same color.Smile

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 9:50 AM | Locked

Floyd Johnson:
I suppose we could ask that Terry's post be any color we want, as long as the font is the same color.Smile

 

Stick out tongue

 

 

Posts 1692
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:02 AM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
I must admit that the way Logos does things is really odd and unfortunate. I think they are realizing this with how all the support calls are killing their response time which they used to pride themselves in. I seriously think they should reconsider their testing and release strategy for future releases. Unfortunately, I think this model is deeply engrained in their DNA.

I just want to say, for the record, that we asked Rosie to come join us more than a decade ago. She could have fixed it all before things became too ingrained in our DNA. So it's Rosie's fault. :-)

We are understaffed in testing, but getting ready to add another. Hard as it is to believe, the act of hiring is actually consuming a lot of our time right now. I'm involved in four interviews just this morning. Developers/testers take even longer, and it's nearly impossible to hire a program manager or UI designer from outside -- they need so much product understanding to be useful, as well as rare skills. If you know of someone, send them my way.

The biggest problem seems to be terminology -- everyone has a different meaning for "alpha", "beta", etc. Basically, we use "alpha" for things that are "far from finished" and "beta" for anything that's not "released". And once the product is released -- like 4.0 -- we only ever use "beta" for subsequent releases of not-yet-finished incremental releases.

While I'm no longer coder -- and appointed a development manager earlier this month -- I'm still the "program manager". I was putting lots of time and daily attention on that before the 4.0 release, but am now buried in all the things I was ignoring then, the new hiring, travel, etc. and confess I'm not getting to look at the daily builds / answer design questions / push back on developers as frequently as I'd like. We actually aren't letting "geeky developers" design features -- our UX designer and I do that -- but in the 4.0b cycle the developers have been getting more freedom / less interaction with the two of us, because we're busy with fires in other parts of the company.

Not an excuse, just an explanation. And maybe I'm still too "geeky" myself -- though I really do think we'd made huge progress. It hurts me deeply (not really :-) ) to hear it still looks like a "programmer's toy." I tried so hard to drink all the iPhone Kool-Aid. :-)

At Microsoft they were hiring, training, and rotating PM's all the time. We very much want to move to that model -- and are finally big enough to do it, I believe -- but hiring a PM for our flagship product is difficult (and scary). We need a professional level understanding of UI, product development, and a deep, deep understanding of our product and users. It's a hard combo to find.

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:03 AM | Locked

Dave Hooton:
Can you provide a link to Bradley's post?

Dave & Bob,

This may be the message thread on design you are looking for:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10026.aspx

Regards,

Scott

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:23 AM | Locked

Scott S:
This may be the message thread on design you are looking for:

That's it!'

thanks for finding it

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:25 AM | Locked

BillS:
Jack Caviness:
Now, if the Dev Team would add a show/hide feature for Martha…

I'm with those that think this might be overkill--and even scary if they could implement it!

Besides, we LIKE Martha!Big Smile

OK, I should have said "for Martha's benefit."

However, I can think of some for whom I need could use a show/hide feature. Geeked

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 10:46 AM | Locked

Kevin Becker:

It seems to me that with the number of pre-pub (Zondervan) about to go out Logos' virtual door it would behoove them to get 4.0b with its merge index fixes out the door or if they can't get it up to quality standards soon, roll those indexer fixes into another SR for 4.0a. The update to the Galaxie journals demonstrated the mass havoc that indexer's bugs can cause. I am anticipating another wave as the Calvin 500 collection (that's a lot of info!) triggers merge indexes in 4.0a installations.

Kevin,

I have not been able to keep up with the beta forum and am only vaguely aware of an "indexer bug".  I read that this bug is confirmed in Wiki, but now see it applies to 4.0a, not just 4.0b beta as I thought.

I've not had any indexing problems with 4.0a with new resources (I don't have the Galaxie journals, but did just download and install the IVP Dict. of O.T.).  I have not participated in the beta program.  Is there anything I need to know to avoid indexing problems?

Wiki linked to David Hooton's jan 17 instruction: "Rebuild Index is the only solution so far."  Is entering Rebuild Index in the command box the current recommended solution if a problem occurs?

Thanks in advance,

Scott

Posts 2698
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 11:02 AM | Locked

Bob, thanks once again for your honesty and openness..  I know you are working hard to resolve everything, and know you will get there.. and trust you arent too worn out by all the interviews.

Bob Pritchett:
It hurts me deeply (not really :-) ) to hear it still looks like a "programmer's toy

I dont think that, if that what was communicated i apologise, I also wasnt trying to point fingers or stir, or even blame anyone..  and am sorry, will try an phrase things better in the future.

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 11:46 AM | Locked

Scott S:

I've not had any indexing problems with 4.0a with new resources (I don't have the Galaxie journals, but did just download and install the IVP Dict. of O.T.).  I have not participated in the beta program.  Is there anything I need to know to avoid indexing problems?

Wiki linked to David Hooton's jan 17 instruction: "Rebuild Index is the only solution so far."  Is entering Rebuild Index in the command box the current recommended solution if a problem occurs?

Yes, "rebuild index" or Deleting the index files are currently the only solution to a corrupted index. Basically, when the supplemental index reaches a certain size Logos will attempted to merge it with the main index. I get the impression that if this happens in 4.0a you are likely to experience index corruption. 4.0b has fixed some of the merge bugs but Bradley has indicated elsewhere some still remain. Hopefully, all the problems with merges will be eliminated soon.

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 12:10 PM | Locked

Kevin Becker:
Basically, when the supplemental index reaches a certain size Logos will attempted to merge it with the main index. I get the impression that if this happens in 4.0a you are likely to experience index corruption.

Kevin,

Okay, that doesn't sound like too much trouble.  If the index becomes corrupted, I'll use L3, then rebuild the index overnight.

Thanks,

Scott

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 2:58 PM | Locked

I personally love the fact that we get to see Logos happen. It has made the company extremely responsive to customer needs. Who knows what needs to happen to the program more than us knuckleheads who spend their days using it. The fact that we get to see each step of the process, provide input, and interact with the actual "geeky programmers" is a huge plus. I appreciate Logos for it. They might be able to "look better" if they released less often, but I love trying to break your program.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 3:01 PM | Locked

DominicM:

Bob Pritchett:
It hurts me deeply (not really :-) ) to hear it still looks like a "programmer's toy

I dont think that, if that what was communicated i apologise, I also wasnt trying to point fingers or stir, or even blame anyone..  and am sorry, will try an phrase things better in the future

Dominic, that was Rosie's statement. I am not a programmer, but from my end as a user of a very unique piece of software, as I said in the previous post, I love the way that Logos rolls out the new features while they are still in process. Let's not learn from Microsoft how to do things. I'd way rather have a company that is as ridiculously responsive to the customer as Logos is than to have a nice profession "big time" testing and QC protocol

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 3:59 PM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:
We are understaffed in testing, but getting ready to add another.

I'm delighted to know it's all Rosie's fault but promise not to use her as a punching bag at the next seminar. Smile

I do have one serious suggestion. You have a very broad skill set in your users - far broader than you can ever have in your testers. If you were to develop a test scenario form and ask the beta testers to suggest tests to you, I suspect you could develop a solid test set built on actual use rather than basic and theoretical testing. The chief advantage? Errors that remain in the code would be less likely to be errors effecting major user groups. Usage statistics tell you what we use but not why we use it. We can tell you why and what we expect as results.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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