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Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Apr 5 2016 12:09 PM

Those without a sarcastic sense of humor, feel free to skip the gripe sections.

<gripe>I hope you realize I'm just getting serious with Logos as I begin seminary, and I have a long ways to go in loving as Jesus loved. I find some things that, as a software developer by day, I can see were coded in a way that makes sense to a programmer, but that aren't actually that great for users. So much that I see in Logos needs a huge user-friendliness makeover for non-technical users, and I say that even though I'm technical. But I don't want to learn another programming language to perform an effective search!</gripe>

Anyway, today's note is about Notes. First, I think a Notes Document should be called a Notebook. "Notes Document" is a weird name. "Notes" doesn't imply a thing with subthings. "Notebook" does.

So I'm researching a paper. I have a Notes Document that contains Subnotes each reviewing one of several sources. I'm ready to start another Subnote comparing 3 Subnotes. But guess what, I can't open multiple copies of my Notes Document, so I don't have any way, without creating temporary Notes Documents and moving Subnotes around, to place them side by side.

Please, if there's a good way to accomplish this, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I think Notebooks should be a thing, and Notes should also be a thing, a thing that can be opened by itself into a floating window, tab, etc. And if you say, just put one Subnote in each Notes Document, then I say give me a way to organize them, like by Project (hi alabama24).

<gripe>Now I understand this might mess up the whole existing mess of putting highlights into Notes Documents, but using one construct for two unrelated things was probably a bad idea to begin with, and I suspect they're going to diverge sooner or later. As an aside, if I could actually harvest my highlighted text from the Notes Document they go into, that would brighten my day, but I just double-checked, and as you all know, they are abbreviated. I know there are other ways. I want things to work the easy way.</gripe>

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 12:24 PM

Zak Metz:

So I'm researching a paper. I have a Notes Document that contains Subnotes each reviewing one of several sources. I'm ready to start another Subnote comparing 3 Subnotes. But guess what, I can't open multiple copies of my Notes Document, so I don't have any way, without creating temporary Notes Documents and moving Subnotes around, to place them side by side.

Please, if there's a good way to accomplish this, I would love to hear it.

Sorry - I can't think of any way of doing this without temporary Notes documents.

Zak Metz:
As an aside, if I could actually harvest my highlighted text from the Notes Document they go into, that would brighten my day,

If you select "Quotes" view in the Notes Document that should give you what you are looking for - if I understand you correctly.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 12:29 PM

Zak Metz:
First, I think a Notes Document should be called a Notebook. "Notes Document" is a weird name. "Notes" doesn't imply a thing with subthings. "Notebook" does.

Great! Nomenclature continues to be an issue with Logos, in my opinion. 

Zak Metz:
I say give me a way to organize them, like by Project (hi alabama24).

w00t! 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 3:28 PM

Zak Metz:
Those without a sarcastic sense of humor, feel free to skip the gripe sections.

I take this as a challenge to be met with overwhelming logic and dry humor ... and a bit of genuine information if necessary. Wink

Zak Metz:
First, I think a Notes Document should be called a Notebook. "Notes Document" is a weird name. "Notes" doesn't imply a thing with subthings. "Notebook" does.

As they are one of 15 or so documents types I disagree. Notebook would be inconsistent and strange. What is contained within is a collection of things (notes) not subthings

Zak Metz:
Please, if there's a good way to accomplish this, I would love to hear it.

Don't laugh because I handle this by taking screenshots of notes which works surprisingly well. I'll admit I'd prefer more of an index card/sticky note approach to viewing notes. I think this is one reason people get tied up in knots (monkey fists I believe) trying to organize their notes.

Zak Metz:
mess of putting highlights into Notes Documents, but using one construct for two unrelated things was probably a bad idea to begin with

Did you scuttle all your data design training when you knew you were heading to seminary? Wink One has a choice to highlight or not highlight your note which is extremely useful. You select a position or a range and choose what to do - highlight and/or label and/or annotate and/or clip ... as you can see my complaint is their data design segregated out the fourth subtype. But they are all members of the class "I selected it now what was it I wanted to do?". If I were forced to create an additional "thing" for of my actions, I'd be stuck with many more user created things running around the system, have more trouble finding the right one to delete, have little clur as to whether or not I'd found all my little fractured pieces ... But given that I used color coding and highlighting in the index card world (I also used sorting holes along the side) ....

Zak Metz:
I want things to work the easy way.

Yup, and bad data design will never get you there ... I know 'cuz I have experience both with doing it right and with making it a big mess. Embarrassed

P.S. I appreciated your self-identification of griping. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 4:06 PM

MJ. Smith:

Zak Metz:
First, I think a Notes Document should be called a Notebook. "Notes Document" is a weird name. "Notes" doesn't imply a thing with subthings. "Notebook" does.

As they are one of 15 or so documents types I disagree. Notebook would be inconsistent and strange. What is contained within is a collection of things (notes) not subthings

Find a gallery of Notepad screen shots that includes OS/2 Warp 4 Notepad with Tabs on right side => http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/notepad

General Settings gallery => http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/general includes OS/2 2.1 and OS/2 Warp 3 with navigation arrows on the lower right that could be used to visit every setting (some tabs on right side had more than one page of choices).

For Logos and Verbum, the tabs on the side could be Tags, which allows quick navigation to Tag with "reading view" like arrows to navigate more than one note with the same tag.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 4:07 PM

MJ. Smith:
As they are one of 15 or so documents types I disagree. Notebook would be inconsistent and strange. What is contained within is a collection of things (notes) not subthings

The term "Notes Document" doesn't even make sense. Which is it?, the new user asks (and I'm that new user). And why is Syntax Search a Document type? Clippings "Document"? Reading Plan "Document"? Seriously, this is too easy. Explain to me how a Visual Filter is some sort of Document. Bizarro. This stuff needs to be renamed and rearranged. Similarly, why can't I find Timeline among Interactive Resources? It's interactive. Passage Analysis looks just like the other Interactive resources. The distinction is lost on me. Reorganize! Clean out that closet.

MJ. Smith:
Did you scuttle all your data design training when you knew you were heading to seminary? Wink One has a choice to highlight or not highlight your note which is extremely useful.

Ok smarty. Now explain to me how that's going to work out when I want to highlight in my Subnotes. Just because two things are similar on the surface doesn't mean they belong in the same class.

And yes, I'm continuing to use the term Subnote to be snarky.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 6:04 PM

A serious comment - to be comfortable in Logos with a medium to large library, one has to be comfortable switching between models - different syntax schemes, different morphological schemes, variations in discourse grammar, semantic vs grammatical roles ... the list goes on.

As is true in any software, Faithlife chose a particular model to implement. It is not the only possible model but it is reasonably consistently implemented. And, for most people, it is reasonably closes to their implicit mental model. One can choose to accept it and find Logos/Verbum reasonably easy to learn or you can fight it and constantly be in the forums asking similar questions repeatedly.

It is also true that Logos has some annoying limitations for historical reasons (e.g. inability to highlight in footnotes), it has limitations that cause features to be underutilized and hence not get updated as needed (e.g. sentence diagrams) and it has cases where it needs to adjust to meet the changing needs of various portions of its user base.

So when you have constructive suggestions for changes, please use either the Suggestions forum and logos.uservoice.com to make those suggestions.  It is the responsibility of Faithlife, not users, to determine whether the suggestion has suggested a viable solution, identifies a problem for which Faithlife has a viable solution, or simply identifies a concern to be kept in mind or addressed via training.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 6:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
So when you have constructive suggestions for changes

I'm a paying user, and I've paid a lot for a large library. If I have an opinion about how hard something is, or how it doesn't make sense, FL should be listening, regardless of whether or not I'm offering a solution. I'm the voice of the customer. At my day job (Pitney Bowes, a massive company), we listen really, really closely when customers talk, whatever they have to say. Indeed there is nothing more valuable than customer feedback, and we go to great lengths to get it. If problems are actually discussed and can evolve in the Suggestions forum, I could use that, but I'd rather stay here and find out if there actually is an answer or a better idea before escalating.

I disagree with your implication that models are relatively static, almost set in stone. Especially in an object-oriented design, as Logos clearly is, parts can be swapped out and improvements made. Sometimes what would seem like a major change is actually quite simple, and vice versa, so I don't think any non-Logos-developer should express an opinion on how hard or easy some idea would be to implement. The primary concern should be, how much easier would this make the product to use?

I think that, as a group of users, we should stay right here and talk it out, discuss better ways, debate, then maybe we'll have something much more valuable to post on UserVoice, etc. I'm not satisfied with workarounds, and I'm alert to things that don't make sense, more so than people who have used the software for years and sort of accept it (it is what it is). If I gripe and nobody has a good answer, my gripe is legitimate. FL's goal should be to provide powerful software that's easy to use. Logos is not. Your first paragraph proves it.

MJ. Smith:
It is the responsibility of Faithlife, not users, to determine whether the suggestion has suggested a viable solution, identifies a problem for which Faithlife has a viable solution, or simply identifies a concern to be kept in mind or addressed via training.

Yes, and not you. I assume you're here to serve the users: I'm the user. You may not care for my tone, but that does not mean my opinion is not valuable, and that you shouldn't escalate what could be a valuable improvement.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 7:17 PM

Zak Metz:
You may not care for my tone, but that does not mean my opinion is not valuable, and that you shouldn't escalate what could be a valuable improvement.

I enjoyed your tone which I hoped my initial response conveyed. I agree your opinion is valuable and have no objection to your opinion. However, in more than a handful of decades on earth, I have learned that beating one's head against a brick wall generally has little effect beyond bruising your head. I feel comfortable suggesting that, if you wish to use Logos and not be beaten to a pulp, it is desirable to either (a) wear a helmet or (b) explore ways to work within what Logos does provide. I am also simply a user and certainly did not mean to annoy you ... only to give you advanced warning based on my experience with Logos/Verbum and the forums.

Sorry but my natural instinct as a logician is when someone says "doesn't make sense" is to try to show them how it does "make sense" ... which is not to say it is the best way, merely to say there is logic behind the Faithlife choice.  Unfortunately on the forums, until you've been around a while, I often misjudge whether or not you will find it helpful.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 7:46 PM

MJ. Smith:
I have learned that beating one's head against a brick wall generally has little effect beyond bruising your head.

My experience is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. My teams spend 3/4 of their time greasing wheels.

Sorry about the "tone" comment. You're right, you did say that.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 5 2016 8:08 PM

As application manager, I had the luxury of ignoring squeaky wheels.We worked on legal requirements, greatest benefits and ignored subgroup priorities. One applied math professor appealed all the way to the state governor and I still ignored him. I'd given him a logical explanation and the calculation formula so I was done. Big Smile Geeked

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 111
Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 9:02 AM

MJ. Smith:
As application manager, I had the luxury of ignoring squeaky wheels.

That's no longer something to be proud of. Those were your customers you were ignoring. Any user of your application is a customer.

Modern development philosophies (Lean/Agile/Scrum) value customer involvement over everything else. Products start life with minimum viable features, as determined by working with actual customers. Then each Sprint, or ~month of development effort, addresses the current highest priority items as determined by a Product Owner who prioritizes work based on customer's needs/wants and business needs. This process never ends. You can tell Logos is doing this by their release cycle. In Agile/Scrum, every Sprint results in a shippable product, and ideally you do ship it. That's likely what Logos Now is.

If it was important enough to your customer to escalate the issue to the governor, it sounds to me like it should have been a high priority for you to improve your product, even if you "thought" you had done it right.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 11:21 AM

Zak Metz:
That's no longer something to be proud of. Those were your customers you were ignoring. Any user of your application is a customer.

Yes Smile

Where did you say you worked, MJ? Stick out tongue

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 11:50 AM

Zak Metz:

MJ. Smith:
It is the responsibility of Faithlife, not users, to determine whether the suggestion has suggested a viable solution, identifies a problem for which Faithlife has a viable solution, or simply identifies a concern to be kept in mind or addressed via training.

Yes, and not you. I assume you're here to serve the users: I'm the user.

Just to clarify, in case you are not aware of that: MJ is a user just like you are - not a Faithlife employee. The star below her name and her >20k posts show that she really is here to serve the users, but voluntarily so.  

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 11:58 AM

NB.Mick:
Just to clarify, in case you are not aware of that: MJ is a user just like you are

MJ, do you have the ability to bring specific user-reported issues/threads to FL's attention, some way that non-MVPs do not?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 12:50 PM

Zak Metz:
That's no longer something to be proud of. Those were your customers you were ignoring. Any user of your application is a customer.

Given that my direct owners were the heads of approximately 40 payroll/personnel related units plus the departmental payroll clerks for a major research university and its associated hospitals, research vessels, and offsite research centers world wide and that my indirect customers included > 30,000 employees, students, retirees who received checks twice a month + related external interfaces, I suspect that I knew what I was doing.  We made use of customer involvement when appropriate and generally worked via user/owner committees. My grandson who did a stint at Amazon before settling in at Microsoft keeps me abreast of current development philosophies ... some of which I expect to do well, some of which will wither as good in theory but not in practice. And my love of modeling did keep me near the forefront ... I implemented the University's 2nd database system, first distributed input, first web based input, first formal test plans based on solid test theory, first telecommuting ...  Oh yes, and for the fun of it over the last decade + of retirement I have taken coursera courses in user interface design, natural language processing and data mining for fun.

Zak Metz:
If it was important enough to your customer to escalate the issue to the governor, it sounds to me like it should have been a high priority for you to improve your product, even if you "thought" you had done it right.

Hmmm ... the issue was that the Social Security deduction alternated by a penny in his paychecks. This was because our Social Security calculation was designed to integrate with the university physicians group which also paid our employees - but for patient care. We integrated so that those reaching the maximum cut off when they had reached the maximum on our combined payrolls. As I constantly reminded a young employee on my team "Don't Assume". Squeaking is usually a substitute for a solid case.

Zak Metz:
MJ, do you have the ability to bring specific user-reported issues/threads to FL's attention, some way that non-MVPs do not?

Not really. Various people in the forums know email addresses of employees for various reasons - often because the employee shared them on the forums. MVP's have a couple of these addresses that they can use when something really needs immediate attention ... which is very rare ... both of these addresses have be shared on the forums so they aren't special for MVP. In addition, since I've been to the offices a couple of times, there are a couple of people I feel free to bring something to the attention of occasionally ... usually to ask them to pass it on to the appropriate person.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 2:29 PM

Ok, so I think we worked through a lot of good stuff there. Now what I would like to ask is, after I've had a chance to float a potential improvement by my friends in the forums, what is the best way to then submit that such that it'll get attention from FL? Is that the Suggestions forums you mentioned earlier, or UserVoice? I have several I'd like to submit from this conversation, but I don't want to flood UserVoice unless that's the right thing to do.

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Zak Metz | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 3:01 PM

Graham Criddle:

Zak Metz:
As an aside, if I could actually harvest my highlighted text from the Notes Document they go into, that would brighten my day,

If you select "Quotes" view in the Notes Document that should give you what you are looking for - if I understand you correctly.

Sorry I never thanked you for this answer. Yes! That is what I was looking for.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 6 2016 3:14 PM

Zak Metz:
I have several I'd like to submit from this conversation, but I don't want to flood UserVoice unless that's the right thing to do.

Uservoice - after checking that it isn't already there; then use the forums to drum up support.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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