Second Hand Sermons?

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Posts 24
Nicholas Roland | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 6:40 AM

So, may I throw an example out there for feedback? Years ago I heard a sermon on a passage in Mark that was very formative for me. When my church was preaching through Mark, it came time for me to preach that passage. I did my own exegetical work. I prayed over and wrestled with the text. In the end I couldn't get away from the basic outline and main idea that I had heard in that sermon earlier. I felt like that preacher got it. I could have moved further away, but it would have compromised what I felt even more convicted about after my exegetical work. So, I shaped my sermon from his basic outline and main ideas with my own fresh exegetical work and some illustrations while in the end still landing in the same way he did. When I got up to preach, I opened by acknowledging that I had heard this pastor preach this text and I learned most of what I would share from him and would follow his approach. Do you see this as honest and having pastoral integrity? I'm still young and new at this.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 6:59 AM

Nicholas Roland:
Do you see this as honest and having pastoral integrity? I'm still young and new at this.

Absolutely. 

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Posts 61
Dean Stow | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 7:41 AM

I am not trying to be obtuse.  I don't have an axe to grind.  I am truly looking for an answer.

This is something I have been struggling with for quite some time.  I respect the concept of intellectual property and hope to write informative material someday.  On the other hand (to quote Solomon) is there anything new under the sun?

To be honest, is not 90+% of what we can say about the scriptures something we have read or heard said before?  Is that number be more like 99+%?

Clearly, if someone thinks sermon prep is memorizing another's work and presenting it as their own, this is wrong.  But where does one draw the line?  When a preacher or commentator describes the worship habits of the Caananites to establish background for an exposition out of Joshua, should they pepper their sermon with bibliographical asides?  For an author, at what time does something become accepted knowledge and no longer need to be footnoted?  If one has ten sources, does one pick a single source to note or does one list every source they have?

One concern I have is that I might use an illustration (crediting the source from which I heard it) only to to be naming the wrong source.

Once during a conversation at a traveling bible museum with a presenter I mentioned that I was interested because I had heard such and such from so and so and was informed "Yes, he got that from me."  How embarrasing for the three of us (even though the third party wasn there).

Please forgive my ignorance as it has been a very long time since I have written a term paper and may have forgotten simple rules of thumb appropriate for this discussion.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 8:09 AM

Dean Stow:
 If one has ten sources, does one pick a single source to note or does one list every source they have?

The short answer is: use the one that seems to you to be the original, if that can be told.  Sometimes a phrase is attributed to several people and it is hard to tell.  Pick one and cite the source and let history play itself out.  In general if you cite the source, that is all you can do to back up your quote.  You cannot possibly know the whole history of literary origins and transmission.  Just have integrity with what you do know.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 62
Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 8:29 AM

Maybe a good analogy is the production of music: Everybody has influences and, inevitably, echoes of those influences will show up in the music that an artist makes. It is good to acknowledge one's influences: Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Keller, Piper, etc. There is also the "fair use" doctrine, which at one time (and I may be wrong about this now) was considered 8 recognizable notes of a song; the pastoral equivalent is tricker, and a matter of integrity and conscience. Then there is "sampling" or "remixing" which either "quote" an original work directly or rework it, with acknowledgment to the original artist. If you use a "sample", acknowledge it  (in the music world, this can be a costly error; e.g. the string sample from the song Bittersweet Symphony is from a Rolling Stones song; the Stones management did not permission for that sample to be use, so the band The Verge eventually forfeited all royalties for the song). Just remember that a sermon filled with "so-and-so said this, and this dude say that" gets exhausting for your listeners; it's taken me years of ordained ministry to accept that people really do want to hear what I (or you) have to say!  

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 3:41 PM

Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett:
 

The Verge eventually forfeited all royalties for the song

wow, the same thing happened to the Verve! 😋

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1113
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 4:48 PM

alabama24:

Nicholas Roland:
Do you see this as honest and having pastoral integrity? I'm still young and new at this.

Absolutely. 

I completely agree. You studied and learned, and then gave your congregation the best of what you'd found, giving appropriate credit where credit was due.  No one could ask anything more of you.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 5:09 PM

Ok, Friedrich, it's time for a refresher on your thumbnail pic .... I forgot where it was?

Less (or more) seriously, this thread is fascinating. A sermon as intellectual property. And sure, even the 'Bible' ... God's very words .... as human intellectual property ... only to be bought and sold in North America (where the lost tribes sailed to).

Some pastors in some traditions believe it's the Holy Spirit in charge ... but of course the actual words being personally owned .... maybe some oxen treading royalties?

I wonder how far back this idea went? Just off the top of my head, a few centuries maybe? 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 6:34 PM

Denise:
Ok, Friedrich, it's time for a refresher on your thumbnail pic .... I forgot where it was?

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Denise:
Less (or more) seriously, this thread is fascinating. A sermon as intellectual property. And sure, even the 'Bible' ... God's very words .... as human intellectual property ... only to be bought and sold in North America (where the lost tribes sailed to).

As Tupac once said: Only God can judge me!  (psst--do you think he might?)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 6:40 PM

Denise:
time for a refresher on your thumbnail pic

I have GOT to tell you . . . no joke . . . just until now, I somehow thought your avatar thing was a bottom up view of you rappeling down through some trees.  Your question got me to examine yours.  I guess it is a bird? 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1971
Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 7:35 PM

Friedrich:
the same thing happened to the Verve!

And the irony of that case is that the old gospel song "This May Be The Last Time" (which preceded the Stones's song "The Last Time") sounds much more like the Stones' song than the Andrew Oldham instrumental, which was what the Verve actually copied/sampled.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 9 2016 8:49 PM

Robert M. Warren:

Friedrich:
the same thing happened to the Verve!

And the irony of that case is that the old gospel song "This May Be The Last Time" (which preceded the Stones's song "The Last Time") sounds much more like the Stones' song than the Andrew Oldham instrumental, which was what the Verve actually copied/sampled.

soo, the Stones are sampling church hymns? 😋

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 10 2016 4:07 AM

Here's my view- if you as a Pastor are preaching and have prayed prior to starting that the Lord speak through you- which we understand to mean as in your study He has prepared you to deliver the message to HIS people- then to me you have lost all claim to the intellectual knowledge.

I use others ideas and material without any compunction to attribute every detail to some one else- while I do acknowledge "others have said, etc" in passing.

Teaching the Word or preaching the Word is intellectual property of the Lord only- no matter who you are, as long as it is the truth- which is getting harder to find nowadays.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 10 2016 6:44 AM

I tried really hard, Friedrich, to rapel down in that avatar ... I just can't see it!   

Yes, it's a bird (but not a plane). He's scanning tourist cars below our house for any unauthorized rabbits.

The scientists pose the question, as a hunter, why is he so obvious. My answer is that he's the aircraft carrier of the bird navy. Fear is the point.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 10 2016 6:59 AM

Denise:
My answer is that he's the aircraft carrier of the bird navy. Fear is the point.

which you, for one, can fully appreciate!

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 10 2016 7:04 AM

Denise:

I tried really hard, Friedrich, to rapel down in that avatar ... I just can't see it!   

lol, I think it's hilarious, because that is literally ALL I thought of for several years now.  It's my old man eyes.  can't see for nothin'.  It's kinds like mis-learning lyrics. 

"'cause I'm a full-blooded sinner..." (friend of mine's mangling of Foghat's "fool for the city . . .")

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1113
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 11 2016 7:25 AM

Denise:

... A sermon as intellectual property ...

I don't think about the question in terms of a formal right to intellectual property. The nature of the publishing industry does make that a consideration for published sermons (though even in that case I believe it's only copyright - the expression of the idea - that's protected, rather than other forms of intellectual property protection, such as patents or trade secrets, which would protect the underlying idea or technique). But I think of it in terms of common courtesy and respect.  In other words, if the preacher I've benefited from in preparing my lesson were sitting in the back of the room listening, would he feel honored by my use of his material?  If the answer is "yes," then I feel like I've used it appropriately.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 11 2016 8:38 AM

Nicholas

When I start teaching a new group/congregation fairly early on I tell them that I am not here to preach something new -- I am here to rehearse and old old story and the way it has developed through the ages. If I start to tell them something new then I am am probably getting it wrong.

This means that plagiarism is my middle name pinching ideas, as I do, from the greatest teacher of all time, retelling his stories, remodelling his examples, mimicking, as far as I can, his style. Anybody else I pinch ideas from is somewhat secondary.

On the other hand I have no problem with starting teaching with 'I wish I could claim this sermon was my own work but the Lord gave to Joe Bloggs first and then pointed me in his direction.

tootle pip

Mike

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Posts 8493
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 11 2016 9:14 AM

 I used John Phillips outline on Enoch for Bible class this past Sunday.  I added so much extra that I will be doing part two for next Sunday.   I gave him credit and the brethren definitely loved the alliteration.  I added some extra sub points of my own that were Alliterative also.  Even John Phillips himself said that he used an outline that he found on his mothers Bible notes to elaborate his material on Psalm 23. 

"But of all the ways we can divide this psalm, I like best the one I found in my mother’s open Bible, there beside her bed, the day after she died. Alongside this psalm she had written: “The secret of a happy life, a happy death, a happy eternity.” (Exploring Psalms 1-88).

If John Phillips and other renowned scholars can do it, why can't we. All we need to do is rework the outline and add our own personal touch, not forgetting to give credit where credit is due :)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 11 2016 12:00 PM

EastTN, I've no quarrel with the concept ... once oxen get royalties for grain stomping, all's well. Just interesting.

I come from corporateland. If I quoted the CEO without attribution, he'd be thrilled, if only to get results. Ditto quoting the janitor ... everyone's on the team, and the issue is results.

I think the Jesus equiv was the idea, what goes in is not the criticality ... it's what comes out.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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