Eastern Orthodox mystics

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 4 2016 6:58 AM

Would purchasing these two books/resources be congruent to Eastern Orthodox mysticism, spirituality or the contemplative life style?

Just want to figure out the "intouch" or inner life of the Orthodox way of living.

Here are the two resources:

Would these be compatible to the Philokalia?

The Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.)

Early Egyptian Monasticism Collection (5 vols.)

mm.

mm.

Posts 1599
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 7:28 AM

Both collections include material which has been influential on the "contemplative live" and so Mysticism. But reading about it is a far cry from any understanding of it - and I will not claim to really understand it myself.

Much better, I think, would be to arrange a guest visit for a few days with a contemplative community. No, they will not be able to instantly answer all your questions, but it is a much better way to get in touch with the contemplative live - and I say this having just returned from a day and half with some Benedictines...

After such a visit is when some resource recommendations would make more sense.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 7:38 AM

This one...

https://www.logos.com/product/54497/philokalia-the-eastern-christian-spiritual-texts-selections-annotated-and-explained

has selections taken from the Philokalia which will give you a pretty good idea of Eastern Orthodox Spirituality.

The Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.) is primarily short biographies with quotations here and there.

Early Egyptian Monasticism Collection (5 vols.) is mostly history/biographical as well, other than 

Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian

and

The Rules of Pachomius 

which give some actual writings of Macarius and Pachomius but neither of these are probably going to get you what you're looking for.

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James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 8:34 AM

Also if you're looking for a good overview of Mystic writings from the East this book (not yet available from Logos)

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Writings-Christian-Mysticism-Classics/dp/0812974212/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462375860&sr=8-2&keywords=essential+writings+bernard

is probably the best on the subject. And you can determine where each author is from and whether they would fit in the Eastern category (since the book covers all of those traditionally associated with Mysticism and not just the Eastern)

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 11:14 AM

Milkman:
Would purchasing these two books/resources be congruent to Eastern Orthodox mysticism, spirituality or the contemplative life style?

Yes, substantially, although I would recommend reading The Wisdom of the Desert first or instead.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 11:41 AM

Then, while it is a biit broader, there is always Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 12:06 PM

Oxford Studies in StSymeon the New Theologian(2 vols.)

This unfortunately has not been released but is one of the more important Mystical writers of the Orthodox faith. I have of course read him in the Philokalia and some of his works elsewhere... I wish there were more available by him in Logos.

-Dan

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 12:53 PM

James Taylor:
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Writings-Christian-Mysticism-Classics/dp/0812974212/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462375860&sr=8-2&keywords=essential+writings+bernard

McGinn is one of my favorite writers on Christian mysticism. I have asked for his multi-volume history of Christian mysticism multiple times. The first volume is The Foundations of Mysticism: Origins to the Fifth Century (The Presence of God: A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1)

Actually the first volume or two apply equally to Orthodox or Catholic.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 6:28 PM

You may also find this set helpful:

https://www.logos.com/product/49432/orthodox-spiritual-heritage-collection

Here is another edition, on Logos, of the Philokalia.  Not sure the content is identical to the other on-line sellers edition or the other Logos resource mentioned above.

https://www.logos.com/product/45046/the-philokalia-a-classic-text-of-orthodox-spirituality

Maybe Gabe will chime in and provide some recommendation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 6:54 PM

Steve:
Maybe Gabe will chime in and provide some recommendation.

Gabe is no longer with Faithlife.

Steve:
https://www.logos.com/product/45046/the-philokalia-a-classic-text-of-orthodox-spirituality

is a book about the philokalia rather than the Philokalia anthology itself.

https://www.logos.com/product/49432/orthodox-spiritual-heritage-collection While I am a fan of SkyLight Paths, they are generally heavily condensed and well annotated introductory texts.

Most of the authors that come to mind are stuck in pre-pub - Ephrem the Syrian, Gregory Palamas, John Climacus, John Cassian ... The Works of Dionysius the Areopagite (2 vols.) is actually available; should we recommend Select Works of St. Athanasius (4 vols.) by Athanasius of Alexandria? he Fathers of the Desert (2 vols.) or The Wisdom of the Desert by James O. Hannay are useful but are they a good starting point?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 7:02 PM

Years ago I read some of the mystics, and read a lot about the mystics. But in visiting a contemplative community, I found the vast difference between "book study" of it and witnessing it. It is almost like reading a book about breathing and breathing itself...

That said, some very interesting resources have been suggested in this thread. :)

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 7:07 PM

Okay, I've researched some Orthodox sources I trust.

the williard preacher site:

Reading List

The following is a list of books that many have found to be beneficial. Hopefully it will be added to from time to time.

History and Theology

The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine (Volumes 1-5)
by Jaroslav Pelikan

Orthodox Dogmatic Theology
by Father Michael Pomazansky

Genesis, Creation and Early Man
by Father Seraphim Rose

Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future
by Father Seraphim Rose

The Soul After Death
by Father Seraphim Rose

God’s Revelation to the Human Heart
by Father Seraphim Rose

The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church
by Father Seraphim Rose

The Holy Fathers of Orthodox Spirituality (Part II):  How to Read the Holy Fathers
by Father Seraphim Rose

Nihilism:  The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age
by Father Seraphim Rose

The Rush to Embrace
by Archpriest Alexey Young

Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times
by Dennis E. Engleman

Popes and Patriarchs: An Orthodox Perspective of Roman Catholic Claims
by Michael Whelton

An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African American Experience
edited by Father Paisius Altschul

The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church
by Vladimir Lossky

Life After Death: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by Hierotheos

Ecclesiastical History
by Eusebius Pamphilus

Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by Hierotheos

The Truth of our Faith
by Elder Cleopa of Romania

An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
by St. John of Damascus

Mary The Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas
edited by Christopher Veniamin

The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami?
by David Bentley Hart

Spiritual Life

Monastic Wisdom: The Letters of Elder Joseph the Hesychast
St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox Monastery

Counsels From the Holy Mountain: Selected From the Letters and Homilies of Elder Ephraim
St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox Monastery

Elder Arsenios the Cave-Dweller (1886-1983): Fellow Ascetic of Elder Joseph the Hesychast
by Monk Joseph Dionysiatis

Abbot Haralambos Dionysiatis: The Teacher of Noetic Prayer
by Monk Joseph Dionysiatis

St. Andrew the Fool For Christ’s Sake
by Priest Nikephorus

St. Silouan the Athonite: Archimandrite Sophrony

Wounded by Love: The Life and Wisdom of Elder Porphyrios
published by Denise Harvey

Father Arseny (1893-1973): Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father
translated from the Russian by Vera Bouteneff

Father Seraphim Rose – His Life and Works
by Hieromonk Damascene

The Philokalia (Volumes 1-4)
compiled by St. Nikodimos of the Holy Mountain and St. Makarios of Corinth

Writings From the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart
translated by E. Kadloubovsky and G.E.H. Palmer

The Ladder of Divine Ascent
by St. John Climacus

On Ascetical Life: St. Isaac of Nineveh
translated by Mary Hansbury

Little Russian Philokalia, Volume 1: St. Seraphim
translated by Father Seraphim Rose

The Sayings of the Desert Fathers
translated by Benidicta Ward

The First Created Man: St. Symeon the New Theologian
translated by Father Seraphim Rose

The Way of the Pilgrim and The Pilgrim Continues His Way
edited by New Sarov Press

We Shall See Him as He Is
by Archimandrite Sophrony

The Deification as the Purpose of Man’s Life
by Archimandrite George of St. Gregorios of Mt. Athos

Experiences of the Grace of God
by Archimandrite George of St. Gregorios of Mt. Athos

A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain
by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos – Hierotheos

Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit: The Lives and Counsels of Contemporary Elders of Greece
by H. Middleton

Obedience Is Life: Elder Ephraim of Katounakia
by Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi

Avvakum the Barefoot
by Monk Theodoretos the Hagiorite

Elder Joseph the Hesychast: Struggles – Experiences – Teachings
by Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi

The Illness and Cure of the Soul in the Orthodox Tradition: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos
by Hierotheos

The Life of St. Anthony the Great
by St. Athanasius

The Life of St. Mary of Egypt
by St. Nectarios Press

Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain
by Priestmonk Christodoulos

God’s Fools: The Lives of the Holy “Fools for Christ”
by Bishop Varlaam Novakshonoff

The Divine Flame – Elder Porphyrios – Lit In My Heart
by Monk Agapios

Counsels For Life
from the Life and Teachings of Father Epiphanios Theodoropoulos

Apostle to Zaire: The Life and Legacy of Blessed Father Cosmas of Grigoriou
by Demetrios Aslandidis and Monk Damascene Grigoriatis

The Arena: An Offering to Contemporary Monasticism
by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov

In the Heart of the Desert: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers
by John Chryssavgis

The Fathers of the Church
by Saint Gregory the Great Dialogues

Life – Miracles – Prophecies of Saint Seraphim of Viritsa
translated from Greek by Father Nick Palis

Unseen Warfare
by Theophan the Recluse
edited by Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain

St. Cosmas Aitolos
by Constantine Cavarnos

From Glory to Glory
by St. Gregory of Nyssa

Consoler of Suffering Hearts – The Life, Counsels and Miracles of Eldress Rachel, Visionary of Russia
Archpriest Sergei Lebedev

We Shall See Him As He Is
Archimandrite Sophrony

On the Mystical Life – The Ethical Discourses (Vol. 1): The Church and the Last Things
St. Symeon the New Theologian

Hymns on Paradise
St. Ephrem the Syrian

The Discourses
St. Symeon The New Theologian

On God and Man: The Theological Poetry of St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Gifts of the Desert: The Forgotten Path of Christian Spirituality
Kyriacos Markides

Shepherd of Souls: The Life and Teachings of Elder Cleopa
Archimandrite Ioanichie Balan

The Mountain of Silence: A Search for Orthodox Spirituality
by Kyriacos C. Markides

The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Pauses
by Dionysios Farasiotis

Guidance Toward Spiritual Life: Saints Barsanuphius and John

On the Prayer of Jesus
Ignatius Brianchaninov

Contemporary Ascetics of Mount Athos (Vols. 1 & 2)
Archimandrite Cherubim

The Evergetinos (Vol. 1)

Becoming Orthodox

Thirsting For God in a Land of Shallow Wells
by Matthew Gallatin

Becoming Orthodox
by Peter E. Gillquist

Non-Orthodox Writings

Orthodoxy
by G.K. Chesterton

The Everlasting Man
by G.K. Chesterton

Mere Christianity
by C.S. Lewis

Screwtape Letters
by C.S. Lewis

The Abolition of Man
by C.S. Lewis

The Chronicles of Narnia
by C.S. Lewis

The Great Divorce
by C.S. Lewis

Miracles
by C.S. Lewis

A Grief Observed
by C.S. Lewis

The Hobbit
by J.R.R. Tolkien

The Lord of the Rings
by J.R.R. Tolkien

Animal Farm
by George Orwell

Brave New World
by Aldous Huxley

Journey Into the Mind of an Islamic Terrorist
by Mark A. Gabriel

Lord of the Flies
by William Golding

What’s So Great About Christianity
by Dinesh D’Souza

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins’ Case Against God
by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker

There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
by Antony Flew

Black Like Me
by John Howard Griffin

On the sequence of reading the Philokalia a.k.a. where to start with the original works from which the Philokalia draws.

Fr. Maximos' Reading List

Some of you have inquired about Fr. Maximos' suggested order to reading the Philokalia.  Rather than respond individually, I'm posting it here as it was distributed to us.  Just a note: for my class, I reversed the first two readings and started with the general introduction, the went into the text he mentions first (“Guarding the Mind and the Heart”).  It has worked out just fine.   I am deeply indebted to Fr. Maximos for his presentations.  When it comes to prayer, I need all the help I can get.     ☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦☦   FR. MAXIMOS (CONSTAS) THE TRADITIONAL PATH OF ENTRY INTO THE PHILOKALIA   Before reading any of the works in the Philokalia, it will be helpful to read the following two items. The first is St. Nikodemos’ outstanding summary of all the principle doctrines and practices that the reader will encounter on the traditional path of entry into the Philokalia. The second is his Introduction to the Philokalia, which was omitted by the English translators.   St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, “Guarding the Mind and the Heart,” in id., A Handbook of Spiritual Counsel, trans. P. Chamberas (New York, 1989), 153-172.   St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, “Introduction to the Philokalia,” trans. C. Cavarnos, The Philokalia, vol. 1 (Belmont, 2008), 27-40.   * The following works constitute the traditional path of entry into the Philokalia. When read in this order, they gradually and wisely initiate the reader into the practices of inner attention, spiritual sobriety, and the Prayer of the Heart. Moreover, they amply demonstrate the Biblical and Patristic foundations of these practices, as well as their direct connection to the sacramental life of the Church. Because the mind must first be recalled from its many distractions, these works encourage the practitioner to use the breath as a way to lead the mind to the heart, and from there to invoke the name of Jesus Christ. Having read and understood the basic principles and practices presented in these works, one may afterwards move more freely throughout the other works in the Philokalia.   1. St. Nikephoros the Hesychast, On Watchfulness and the Guarding of the Heart 2. Saints Kallistos and Ignatios, Directions to Hesychasts (WfPh, pp. 164-270). 3. St. Hesychios, On Watchfulness and Holiness (EPh 1:162-198). 4. Evagrios, On Prayer (EPh 1:55-71). 5. A Discourse on Abba Philemon (EPh 2:344-357). 6. St. Symeon the New Theologian, On Faith (EPh 4:16-24). 7. St. Symeon the New Theologian, The Three Methods of Prayer (EPh 4: 67-75). 8. St. Gregory Palamas, In Defense of Those who Devoutly Practice a Life of Stillness (= Triads 1.2) (EPh 4:332-42). 9. St. Gregory of Sinai, On the Signs of Grace and Delusion (EPh 4:257-86).   *    EPh = The Philokalia, vols. 1-4, translated by G.E.H. Palmer, P. Sherrard & K. Ware (London, 1979- 1995). The 5th and final volume, containing the works of Ss. Kallistos & Ignatios and other writers, has WfPh = Writings from the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart, translated from the Russian text by E. Kadloubovsky & G.E.H. Palmer (London, 1951).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2016 4:38 AM

Thank you for this discussion and some great recommendations on the topic of mystics. This has been an interest of mine for many years.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2016 6:57 PM

i'm guessing this is a little OT, but I'm looking forward to the Eerdman's Orthodox/Spirituality bundle getting ready to ship.  I am not sure any of the authors are classified as Mystics (although the titles might suggest it?!) but the books look awesome.  I include the link above incase of interest to you

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2016 7:38 PM

Friedrich:
i'm guessing this is a little OT
-

I can't resist. And yes, I am looking forward to this collection despite it's Russian Orthodox bent (my least favorite of the Eastern Orthodox flavors) but given the authors in this collection:

OrthodoxWiki:

Official Pronouncements Condemning Sophianism

Decree of the Moscow Patriarchate

"By our decision of 24 August, 1935, No.93 it was determined:
i) The teaching of Professor and Archpriest S.N. Bulgakov -- which, by its peculiar and arbitrary (Sophian) interpretation, often distorts the dogmas of the Orthodox faith, which in some of its points directly repeats false teachings already condemned by conciliar decisions of the Church, and the possible deductions resulting from which could even prove dangerous to spiritual life -- this teaching is to be recognized as alien to the Holy Orthodox Church of Christ, and all its faithful servants and children are to be cautioned against an acceptance of this teaching.
ii) Those Orthodox Reverend Archpastors, clergy and laity who have indiscreetly embraced Bulgakov's teaching and who have promoted it in their preaching and works, either written or printed, are to be called upon to correct the errors committed and to be steadfastly faithful to "sound teaching"."

Decree of ROCOR

Decision of the Bishops' Council of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad of the 17/30 October 1935 concerning the new teaching of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov on Sophia, the Wisdom of God:

"i) To recognize the teaching of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov on Sophia the Wisdom of God as heretical.
ii) To inform Metropolitan Evlogy of this Decision of the Council and to request that he admonish Archpriest Bulgakov with the intention of prompting him to publicly renounce his heretical teaching concerning Sophia and to make a report about the consequences of such admonition to the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
iii) In the event that Archpriest Bulgakov does not repent, the present Decision of the Council which condemns the heresy of Sophianism is to be made known to all Autocephalous Churches."

The 1935 decision of the Church Abroad was based on Archbishop Seraphim (Sobolev) of Boguchar’s Novoe uchenie o Sofii (Sofia, 1935), as well as on the arguments of St. John (Maximovitch). St. John, in his book The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God, discusses at length why the sophianism of Sergius Bulgakov is heresy, specifically one as destructive as Nestorianism. Speaking of those who attempt to deify the Theotokos, he wrote:

In the words [of Fr. Sergius Bulgakov], when the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the Virgin Mary, she acquired "a dyadic life, human and divine; that is, She was completely deified, because in Her hypostatic being was manifest the living, creative revelation of the Holy Spirit" (Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov, The Unburnt Bush, 1927, p. 154). "She is a perfect manifestation of the Third Hypostasis" (Ibid., p. 175), "a creature, but also no longer a creature" (P. 19 1)....But we can say with the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, "Against the Collyridians"). This Holy Father accuses those who give Her an almost divine worship: "Let Mary be in honor, but let worship be given to the Lord" (same source). "Although Mary is a chosen vessel, still she was a woman by nature, not to be distinguished at all from others. Although the history of Mary and Tradition relate that it was said to Her father Joachim in the desert, 'Thy wife hath conceived,' still this was done not without marital union and not without the seed of man" (same source). "One should not revere the saints above what is proper, but should revere their Master. Mary is not God, and did not receive a body from heaven, but from the joining of man and woman; and according to the promise, like Isaac, She was prepared to take part in the Divine Economy. But, on the other hand, let none dare foolishly to offend the Holy Virgin" (St. Epiphanius, "Against the Antidikomarionites"). The Orthodox Church, highly exalting the Mother of God in its hymns of praise, does not dare to ascribe to Her that which has not been communicated about Her by Sacred Scripture or Tradition. "Truth is foreign to all overstatements as well as to all understatements. It gives to everything a fitting measure and fitting place" (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov).

But, yes, I think it is safe to say this are not major Eastern Orthodox mystic documents - however, that is not to says we should not consider the authors themselves as mystics.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 8 2016 6:01 PM

thanks, MJ.  interesting.  I decided to search the internets and came on this blurb in the Wikipedia article on him:

 

Fr. Sergei's reply and the episcopal conference, 1937[edit]

Bulgakov responded to the heresy accusation in his Dokladnaia zapiska Mitropolitu Evlogiiu prof. prot. Sergiia Bulgakova (Paris, 1936). Archbishop Seraphim then rebutted Bulgakov in his Zashchita sofianskoi eresi (Sofia, 1937). No final report was prepared on the sophiology controversy by the commission set up by Bulgakov’s own jurisdiction. However, Metropolitan Evlogy convoked a bishop’s conference on 26–29 November 1937 to bring closure to the matter. The bishops in their statement were working from reports by Archimandrite Cassian (Bezobrazov) and Chetverikov and they concluded that the accusations of heresy against Bulgakov were unfounded but that his theological opinions showed serious flaws and needed correction.

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2016 2:07 PM

I ordered The Foundations vol 1 & 2 during this OP and am excited (always love to get new books) to say that both have arrived at the books store.

Thanks again.

MJ. Smith:

James Taylor:
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Writings-Christian-Mysticism-Classics/dp/0812974212/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1462375860&sr=8-2&keywords=essential+writings+bernard

McGinn is one of my favorite writers on Christian mysticism. I have asked for his multi-volume history of Christian mysticism multiple times. The first volume is The Foundations of Mysticism: Origins to the Fifth Century (The Presence of God: A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1)

Actually the first volume or two apply equally to Orthodox or Catholic.

mm.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 28 2016 3:08 PM

I'm sure you'll enjoy them - a part of church history that's important but often skipped over.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 1 2016 1:04 PM

Guess what I just picked up from the book store??

Thanks again for the suggestions and everything else you do!! Big Smile

mm.

MJ. Smith:

I'm sure you'll enjoy them - a part of church history that's important but often skipped over.

mm.

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 1 2016 2:27 PM

Congrats Milkman for abandoning your Reform Baptist beliefs and joining Rick Warren and others like him for signing up with RCC's and EO's and their beliefs completely dissolving the Reformation. Apostasy at its finest.

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