LGBTQ etc : the New Testament

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Francis | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jun 6 2016 12:53 PM

I know there has been a lot of interest in questions related to sexuality in the last couple years here on the forum. Just wanted to point out that this month's sale features a 35% discount on https://www.logos.com/product/46747/the-new-testament-on-sexuality

There are lots of books tackling issues from the vantage point of ministry, culture, or debate. This resource seems to concentrate on an exposition of the NT materials. I won't say more here, just look at the TOC if you are interested.

NB: I have not read it. I am bringing it to attention because of general interest and because it looks promising and is on sale. 

Posts 947
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 1:58 PM

I am interested in this topic and being as up to date as possible.  Here is the digging I found:

From a TGC article:

"William Loader, who has written eight significant books on sexuality in Judaism and early Christianity and is himself a strong proponent of same-sex marriage, points to examples of same-sex adult partnerships in the ancient world."

I'd like to hear from others who've read it.

Posts 682
Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 3:37 PM

What ought to be in Logos is the definitive exploration of Scripture and GLBTetc: Rob Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice. In it, he argues that homosexual practice is incompatible with Jesus and Holy Writ.

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 3:56 PM

Hello Ted,

The Bible and Homosexual Practice is currently in Vyrso.  Maybe one day it will make the jump to Logos

Posts 173
Kevin Olson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 3:57 PM

Ted Weis:

What ought to be in Logos is the definitive exploration of Scripture and GLBTetc: Rob Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice. In it, he argues that homosexual practice is incompatible with Jesus and Holy Writ.

Yes

Posts 8008
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 4:16 PM

Kevin Olson:

Ted Weis:

What ought to be in Logos is the definitive exploration of Scripture and GLBTetc: Rob Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice. In it, he argues that homosexual practice is incompatible with Jesus and Holy Writ.

Yes

I found the following review on this book that is alarming; but then again, prove all things, hold fast what is good:

"This was an outstanding book that defends the historic reading of the Bible - that homosexuality in all its manifestations is sin. Thoroughly exhaustive, he addresses all the revisionist assertions and arguments. I especially appreciate his inclusion of all the pertinent studies that have been conducted - in particular those that show that homosexuality can indeed be "cured," with about the same success rate as reported by Alcoholics Anonymous or smoker cessation programs. This book is very technical, but if you want "the" book on the subject, this is it.

At the same time, I cannot give it a full 5-stars. Why? Because the author openly accepts the Documentary Hypothesis, many of the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar, and he believe Paul is wrong in certain places (see, for example p345). Because of his rejection of inerrancy and his admitted belief that the Bible contains errors, I wonder: upon what epistemological foundation he can write with such conviction that on the topic of homosexuality the Bible gets it right?

In sum: great book, but his liberal doctrine of the Bible undermines the foundation of the edifice he so masterfully builds."

Author's name on the review omitted but you can find it here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1240882706 

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 4:59 PM

This book does not deal with exclusively with the subject under discussion, it does have a chapter discussing the subject.

Here is the table of contents:


Introduction
The Purpose of the Work
The Plan and Scope of the Work
Overview of Old Testament Sexual Vocabulary


Section 1: Sexuality in Eden: The Divine Design (Genesis 1–3)

Chapter 1: Sexuality in the Beginning: Genesis 1–2
Sexuality as a Creation Order
A Heterosexual Human Duality and Marital Form
A Monogamous Marital Form
Equality of the Sexes without Hierarchy
Sexuality and Wholeness
Sexuality and Exclusivity
Sexuality and Permanence
Sexuality and Intimacy
Sexuality and Procreation
The Wholesome, Holy Beauty of Sexuality

Chapter 2: Sexuality and the Fall: Genesis 3
The Nakedness of Adam and Eve
Divine Judgment concerning the Relationship between Eve and Adam


Section 2: Sexuality outside the Garden: Old Testament Development (Torah, Prophets, Writings)

Chapter 3: Creation Ordinance versus Cultic Sexuality
Positive Affirmations of the Edenic Ideal
The Cultic Sacralization/Divinization of Sex in Pagan Worship
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Mesopotamia
Egypt
Anatolia/Hittites
Ugarit/Canaan
Pentateuch
Narratives
Legislation
Sacralization of Sex and the Male Priesthood in Israel
Prophets/Writings
Sexually Related Imagery for God
God as Husband/Bridegroom
God as Father
Feminine Imagery for God
Is God Male or Female?
The Fertility Cults and Divine Grace

Chapter 4: Human Heterosexuality versus Homosexuality, Transvestism, and Bestiality
The Divine Design
Homosexual Practice
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Mesopotamia
The Hittite Empire (Anatolia)
Egypt
Ugarit/Western Semites/Canaan
Summary
Pentateuchal Narratives
Ham’s Sin—a Homosexual Act?
Sodom: Homosexual Lust or Inhospitality?
Pentateuchal Legislation
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13
Deuteronomy 23:18–19 (ET 23:17–18)
Homosexual Practice in the Prophets/Writings
Male Cult Prostitution
Judges 19
Ezekiel 16 and 18
Ruth and Naomi?
David and Jonathan?
The Old Testament Wisdom Tradition?
Summary
Transvestism (Cross-Dressing)
Bestiality
Distortions of the Heterosexual Marital Form and Divine Grace

Chapter 5: Monogamy versus Polygamy/Concubinage
Positive Affirmations of the Edenic Divine Design
Plural Marriages (Polygamy/Concubinage)
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Pentateuchal Narratives
The Bigamy of Lamech
Polygamy at the Time of the Flood
Abraham’s Polygamy/Concubinage
Jacob’s Polygamy/Concubinage
The Polygamy of Esau and Concubinage of His Son
Moses, a Bigamist?
Pentateuchal Legislation
Legislation concerning the Female Slave: Exodus 21:7–11
Legislation against Marrying “a Woman to Her Sister”: Leviticus 18:18
Legislation regarding the King’s Marital Status: Deuteronomy 17:17
Other Legislation Purportedly Presupposing Polygamy
Polygamy in the Prophets/Writings
Summary
Plural Marriages and Divine Grace

Chapter 6: Elevation versus Denigration of Women
Leadership/Submission/Equality and Old Testament Patriarchy: An Overview
The High Valuation of Women in the Old Testament: Pentateuchal Narratives
Genesis Matriarchs
Sarah
Hagar
Rebekah
Rachel and Leah
Tamar
Conclusion
Women at the Exodus
Shiphrah and Puah
The Egyptian Princess
Jochebed
Miriam
The Seven Daughters of Jethro (Including Zipporah)
Conclusion
Daughters of Zelophehad
The High Status of Women in Pentateuchal Laws
Women’s Status vis-à-vis That of Men in Pentateuchal Law
Legislation Purportedly Presenting an Inferior Status for Women
Numbers 5
Leviticus 12:1–8
Leviticus 27:1–8
Numbers 30:4–17 (ET 30:3–16)
Deuteronomy 25:11–12
Woman as Chattel?—the Tenth Commandment and Other Passages
An All-Male Priesthood
The High Status of Women in Religious and Civil Affairs
Conclusion
The High Valuation of Women in the Prophets/Writings
The Former Prophets
Women in Joshua
Women in Judges
Women in Samuel and Kings
The Latter Prophets
Specific Women
Groups of Women
Other Elevated Valuations of Women
The Writings: Narratives/History
Ruth
Esther
Writings: Hymnic/Wisdom Literature
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Distortion of the Divine Ideal: Exploitation, Denigration, and Abuse of Women
Pentateuch
Prophets/Writings
The Denigration of Women and Divine Grace

Chapter 7: Wholeness versus Fragmentation (Prostitution, Mixed Marriages, Masturbation, Sexual Blemishes, and Impurities)
Positive Affirmations of the Edenic Ideal for Sexual Wholeness
Wholistic Anthropology
The Whole Family
Complementarity—Whether Married or Single
Wholeness of Sexual Organs and Freedom from Ritual Impurities
Fragmentation of Sexual Wholeness
Prostitution/Harlotry
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Pentateuchal Narratives
Pentateuchal Legislation
Prophets/Writings
Metaphorical References
Grace
Mixed (Interfaith) Marriages
At the Time of the Flood (Gen 6:1–4)
Patriarchal Warnings
Mosaic Legislation
Prophets
Writings
Grace
Masturbation
Sexual Blemishes and Ritual Uncleanness Related to Sexuality
Pentateuchal Legislation
Prophets/Writings
Grace

Chapter 8: Exclusivity versus Adultery and Premarital Sex
Affirmations of the Divine Ideal of Exclusivity
Exclusivity in the Marriage Relationship
The High Value of Virginity
Distortions of the Divine Ideal: Adultery and Premarital Sexual Intercourse
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Pentateuchal Narratives Related to the Theme of Adultery
Pentateuchal Legislation regarding Adultery
The Decalogue
Other Legislation
Adultery in Israel in Contrast with Other Ancient Near Eastern Legislation
The “Trial of Jealousy” in Numbers 5
Pentateuchal Legislation Dealing with Premarital/Pre-betrothal Sexual Intercourse
Premarital Sex with a Betrothed Virgin (Deut 22:23–27)
The Case of the Slandered Bride (Deut 22:13–21)
Seduction of a Single Woman (Deut 22:28–29; cf. Exod 22:15–16 [ET 22:16–17])
Sexual Intercourse with a Betrothed Slave Girl (Lev 19:20–22)
A Double Standard of Sexual Faithfulness in the Pentateuch?
Adultery in the Prophets
Adultery in the Writings
Psalms
Job
Proverbs
Adultery, Extramarital Sex, and Divine Grace

Chapter 9: Permanence versus Divorce/Remarriage
Affirmation of the Divine Ideal
Distortion of the Divine Ideal: Divorce/Remarriage
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Divorce in Pentateuchal Narratives
Patriarchal “Divorce”: Genesis 21:9–14
Patriarchal Remarriage: Genesis 25:1
Pentateuchal Legislation Related to Divorce: Deuteronomy 24:1–4
Translation
Literary Form and Structure
Grounds for Divorce (v. 1a)
Procedure of Divorce (v. 1b)
Remarriage and the Second Divorce or Death of a Second Husband (vv. 2–3)
Legislation: The Apodosis (v. 4a)
Rationale for the Legislation (v. 4a–d)
The Overall Purpose of the Legislation
Other Pentateuchal Legislation Dealing with Divorce
Prohibitions of Divorce
Prohibitions against Marrying Divorced Women
Rights of Divorced Women
A Woman’s Right to Divorce
Divorce/Remarriage in the Preexilic Prophets
Hosea 2:4
Isaiah 50:1
Jeremiah 3:1, 6–8
Judges 14:20–15:2
1 Samuel 25:44
Divorce and Remarriage in the Postexilic Prophets and the Writings
Ezra 9–10; Nehemiah 9:2; 13:3, 30
Malachi 2:13–16
Divorce/Remarriage and Divine Grace

Chapter 10: Intimacy versus Incest
Affirmations of the Divine Ideal of Marital Intimacy
Pentateuch
Prophets/Writings
Forbidden Degrees of Intimacy: Incestuous Relationships
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Pentateuchal Narratives concerning Incest
Immediately after the Fall
Ham and His Mother?
Lot and His Daughters (Gen 19:30–38)
Reuben and Bilhah (Gen 35:22; 49:4)
Judah and Tamar (Gen 38)?
Pentateuchal Legislation against Incestuous Relations
Incest in the Prophets
Amnon and Tamar (2 Sam 13)
Absalom and His Father’s Concubines (2 Sam 15–16)
Other Cases of Incest
Incest and Divine Grace

Chapter 11: Procreative Sexuality versus Problems/Distortions (Childlessness, Children Born out of Wedlock, and Abortion)
Positive Affirmations of the Edenic Ideal
The First Children
Procreative Fruitfulness, Covenant, and Circumcision
The Cherishing of Children
Childlessness
Orientation and Terminology
Pentateuch
Prophets/Writings
Adoption
Levirate Marriage, Related Legislation, and the Sin of Onan
Levirate and “Onanism” in the Pentateuchal Narrative
Genesis 38
Genesis 38:8–10: “Onanism”
Levirate in the Pentateuchal Legislation: Deuteronomy 25:5–10
Why Levirate Marriage?
Who Qualified as Levir?
Does Levirate Marriage Entail Incest?
What Does the “Sandal Ceremony” Symbolize?
Why Is This Law Placed Here in Deuteronomy?
The “Immodest and Violent Lady Wrestler” of Deuteronomy 25:11–12
Levirate in the Prophets/Writings: The Book of Ruth
Caring for the Widows and Orphans
Children Born out of Wedlock
Pentateuchal Legislation
Prophets/Writings
Reproduction/Population Control and Abortion-Related Issues
Reproduction/Population Control
The Status of the Human Fetus and Implications for Abortion
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Exodus 21:22–25
Other Old Testament Passages Dealing with the Status of the Human Fetus
Problems/Distortions of Procreative Sexuality and Divine Grace

Chapter 12: Beauty versus Rape and the Parody of Beauty
Positive Affirmations of the Edenic Ideal
Pentateuchal Narratives
Pentateuchal Legislation
Prophets/Writings
Distortions of the Beauty of Human Sexuality: Rape
Ancient Near Eastern Background
Pentateuchal Narratives
Lot’s Daughters (Gen 19)
Dinah (Gen 34)
Pentateuchal Legislation concerning Rape
Exodus 22:15–16 (ET 22:16–17) and Deuteronomy 22:28–29
Deuteronomy 22:25–27
Leviticus 21:7, 14
Rape in the Prophets/Writings
The Levite’s Concubine (Judg 19)
Bathsheba (2 Sam 11)
Tamar (2 Sam 13)
Rape and Divine Grace
Sexuality as Unwholesome, Ugly, and Evil
Distorted Sexuality as a Parody of Beauty


Section 3: Return to Eden

Chapter 13: Sexuality in the Song of Songs: The Holy of Holies
Allegorization of the Song of Songs
The Literal Interpretation of the Song of Songs
Return to the Garden of Eden
Sexuality as a Creation Order
A Heterosexual Human Duality and Marital Form
A Monogamous Marital Form
Equality of the Sexes without Heirarchy
Sexuality and Wholeness
Sexuality and Exclusivity
Sexuality and Permanence
Sexuality and Intimacy
Sexuality and Procreation

Chapter 14: Sexuality in the Song of Songs: The Flame of Yahweh
The Wholesome, Holy Beauty of Sexuality
The Flame of Yahweh
Afterword: Some Implications for a New Testament Theology of Sexuality
Sexuality as a Creation Order
Heterosexual versus Homosexual Practice
Monogamy versus Polygamy
Elevation versus Denigration of Women
Wholeness versus Fragmentation
Exclusivity versus Adultery
Permanence versus Divorce
Intimacy versus Incest
Sexuality and Procreation
The Wholesome Beauty of Sexuality


Richard M. Davidson, Flame of Yahweh: Sexuality in the Old Testament (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2007), vii–xv.

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 5:03 PM

Forgot the link.: Flame of Yahweh

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

Posts 621
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 5:16 PM

Ted Weis:

What ought to be in Logos is the definitive exploration of Scripture and GLBTetc: Rob Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice. In it, he argues that homosexual practice is incompatible with Jesus and Holy Writ.

As is all sin. Thank the lord we are all justified by grace and not works because we all fall short (me more than most :-))

Posts 621
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 5:17 PM

Lynden Williams:

Forgot the link.: Flame of Yahweh

Thanks Lynden, it looks a useful book

Posts 8008
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 6:25 PM

Dave Thawley:

As is all sin. Thank the lord we are all justified by grace and not works because we all fall short (me more than most :-))

James 2:24 may correct your thinking. Grace and Works that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them do justify too (Ephesians 2:10; James 2:17,24, 26).  Whatever works of obedience God wants you to perform you must do in order to be justified.  Now works of righteousness that you do yourself and come up with them on your own and not what God has prepared-- those don't justify, but don't exclude all works because that's not Biblical, is a lie from Satan. This is not about theology is about facts and common Biblical sence. If works of obedience don't justify then go and do or be whatever you want since it's grace only, no? Be gay, be an adulterer, a rapist, it doesn't matter as long as you "accept Jesus into your heart" - but I know Biblically speaking Grace won't justify you engaging in those kind of works and be ok with God. Back to basics buddy and you'll know the difference between the grace only and the reality that grace requires us to do the works God wants us to do Titus 2:11-14 ;)

DAL

Posts 462
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 6:36 PM

Without wishing to debate faith versus works - as this is not the place for it - I just want to express my agreement with Dave Thawley's comment.  In my view James 2:24 applies after you are saved i.e., you have already been justified. Works are needed to show your post salvation walk is genuine. My apologies but I felt I had to respond. Best wishes to all. Paul

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 6:46 PM

Paul:

Without wishing to debate faith versus works - as this is not the place for it - I just want to express my agreement with Dave Thawley's comment.  In my view James 2:24 applies after you are saved i.e., you have already been justified. Works are needed to show your post salvation walk is genuine. My apologies but I felt I had to respond. Best wishes to all. Paul

That's what I meant, you need to show by your works you are a genuine christian. Some don't see it that way, though. My apologies if Dave did not mean what some mean.

DAL

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 7:05 PM

DAL .. you definitely nailed it. Ananias and Sapphira bit the dust (literally) on collection plate issues. Gracified vs dishonesty. Judgment won.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 7:19 PM

Guys, guys ... can we agree on a definition of biblical? theology? controversial? Its far more interesting than (sigh) just another LGBTQ discussion. I mean do we really want to be in vogue. Besides, we'll just have to do it all over again to include intersexual.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 506
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 7:34 PM

DAL and Paul, 

Matthew 6:14-15 pretty much settles the question of faith and works. Let it never be spoken of again. Cool

So back to the book, it looks interesting given its scope. Has there been anything else like it?

As always, whatever the book may be or claim, we as Christians can benefit from whatever truth is contained in it despite the conclusions of the author. Reading things like this or Gagnon's book within the Tradition of the Church helps protect us from erroneous conclusions and heresy. Its when we depart from that Tradition that we go astray.

Posts 8008
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 7:59 PM

What's with the "Q" anyway? Last I checked it was only "LGBT" isn't "Queer" just a general term for the whole gay thing anyway? Or does it have another meaning? And now "Intersexual" - so it should be LGBTQI...Oh boy! These poor souls are more confused than a disoriented oriental guy who has been spun around a million times while being blind folded LOL oh well, that's what sin does, it confuses you and won't allow you  to think straight (no pun intended).

DAL

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 8:39 PM

DAL:
What's with the "Q" anyway?

It's for the undecided (questioning) ....

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1358
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 10:09 PM

Paul Newsome:

Hello Ted,

The Bible and Homosexual Practice is currently in Vyrso.  Maybe one day it will make the jump to Logos

I have seen this referred to as the most authoritative, exhaustive work on the subject, but I have not read it.

Several good resources are available in Logos/Vyrso format:

https://vyrso.com/product/56403/unchanging-witness (another new exhaustive work from a more conservative approach) 

https://www.logos.com/product/47062/homosexuality-contemporary-claims-examined-in-light-of-the-bible-and-other-ancient-literature-and-law

https://vyrso.com/product/33314/love-into-light-the-gospel-the-homosexual-and-the-church

https://vyrso.com/product/52686/we-cannot-be-silent-speaking-truth-to-a-culture-redefining-sex-marriage-and-the-very-meaning-of-right-and-wrong

https://vyrso.com/product/46022/compassion-without-compromise-how-the-gospel-frees-us-to-love-our-gay-friends-without-losing-the-truth

https://vyrso.com/product/23292/washed-and-waiting-reflections-on-christian-faithfulness-and-homosexuality

https://vyrso.com/product/21482/the-homosexual-agenda-exposing-the-principal-threat-to-religious-freedom-today

https://vyrso.com/product/41526/loving-my-lgbt-neighbor-being-friends-in-grace-and-truth

https://vyrso.com/product/21738/turning-controversy-into-church-ministry-a-christlike-response-to-homosexuality

https://vyrso.com/product/40207/the-end-of-sexual-identity

Unfortunately, one of my favorite was in Vyrso format (no longer available), but is now in a Logos Crossway collection that is still under development:  Kevin De Young, What Does the Bible Really Teach about Homosexuality? Great book written by a pastor for his congregation.

Posts 5317
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 6 2016 10:20 PM

MJ. Smith:

DAL:
What's with the "Q" anyway?

It's for the undecided (questioning) ....

While this is the case it can represent queer as well. Some people prefer the term as a sign of empowerment reclaiming a word of hurt to be a badge of honour. Similar to how some african americans use the "N" word  to describe themselves. As in that case it likely is not wise to use that unless you are within the community. I even knew of one Minster who referred to himself as Queer. Even though he is straight he saw it as a solidarity with a group he saw marginalized and needing support.

-Dan

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