Please share with us what the hang up is on PPB to Mobile

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Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 7:23 AM

Don Awalt:

Virgil Buttram:

This is also a case study in why companies don't crowdsource product management to the denizens of their public message boards. The personal priorities of passionate partisans do not accurately represent the demands of the marketplace as a whole. Any company that prioritizes the former over the latter dies out.

I would say there's a middle road somewhere between being whip-sawed by a social media approach to product management and ignoring a product feature that the most active users have asked about for 5+ years.

What he said!  ⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 7:24 AM

And I would say that they are in that middle ground, just not where we want them to be. (I want to see improvements in the PBB tool myself.)

Posts 638
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 7:43 AM

In my opinion, Logos is concerned with customers creating their own public domain books. Why should customers pay Logos's inflated price if they could create and exchange many public domain books for free? Public domain books are a cash cow for Logos (I expect). Logos is a business first and needs recurring income streams for profitability.

Posts 2822
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 8:27 AM

I would not be surprised to see the Personal Book feature disappear from Logos at some point, but I would be very disappointed.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 8:59 AM

Into Grace:
In my opinion, Logos is concerned with customers creating their own public domain books

Michael Childs:

I would not be surprised to see the Personal Book feature disappear from Logos at some point, but I would be very disappointed.

I too would be very disappointed if Faithlife made the decision as well. I can see while there would be some concern from FL about public domain books. But the transparency that FL believes it always shows to its customers would motivate them to discuss this issue openly. It's not helping anyone to have a dormant incomplete feature. Sometimes open discussion can bring an otherwise unforeseen solution that no one envisioned. Maybe the only answer is utter disappointment for the PBB users. But life goes on, we would get over it. And can anyone really say that ignoring the feature, ignoring the conversation, and developing a bit of distrust due to the lack of transparency is a better road? I would actually respect them more for being as open and transparent as they advertise to be, making the tough decision, and then we can move on with some confidence we are clued in to the direction. After all, it is somewhat insulting to think we are clueless as to what is going on with the wish list being ignored for 5+ years.

Posts 10039
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 9:03 AM

This feels like the downward side of a roller coaster.

First, no PB's on mobiles yet ... but have developed desktop sync through Logos servers (hello).

Then 'stopped working on it (mobile PB) due to staff cuts'.  (Another clue ... not much else mobile either).

Then surmising by a Logos staff, 'it might be dangerous' (like hosting desktop PBs already?)

Then, yes, mobile PBs might be super-dangerous.  Oh my!  Logosian lawyers are luckily free.

Then, L7 marketing forgot PBs (or carefully left them out!)

And finally, PBs are or will be phased out.  Like Libby's?

How can it get any worse?  Logos prevents users from deleting their uploaded PBs! There must be something in that.


Posts 2822
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 9:42 AM

I use Personal Books, but I have not paid much attention to the desktop syncing because I considered it irrelevant to me.  I use the Surface Pro as both tablet (mobile) and desktop.  So I always have my Personal Books. 

Would someone explain to me about the desktop syncing of personal books?  Are my personal books automatically synced to the Logos servers?  When I update from Surface Pro 3 to Surface Pro 5 in the future, will this be of help to me?

Thanks for explaining to one who obviously is behind.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 9:48 AM

If there was a simplistic answer, we'd share it. It is a complicated, muddy issue, though.

- There are surprising technical difficulties: chief among them are that we don't do a local index on mobile devices. (Yet. And maybe never. But that's a whole technical problem itself.) So we have to search the whole catalog on the server, and that whole catalog takes nearly 24 hours to index. But at least it only needs to be reindexed when we create a new resource, so no more than once a day. Which just barely works. Then we filter out results for books you don't own. (I may be glossing over details here, but it's generally correct.)

Adding user-created PBB's to this story dramatically increases the number of titles, could delay indexing to where we can't do it in 24 hours, and really clutters the index, because a massive number of PBB books are the same book created independently by many people, due to sharing of source files and recompiling of them.

- PBB was intended to be a way to compile your own personal books. We aren't, for obvious reasons, interested in a creating a model where all of our users become competitors to ourselves, using our own tools. Taking public domain titles, building PBBs, and then sharing those PBBs for free is a great community service, but a bad business model for us, who ends up maintaining the storage, servers, tools, etc. Yes, yes, yes, we could price that into our business, etc. but... we didn't. And it's late to go re-engineer our entire pricing and business model to being a tools provider for user-shared content libraries.

We're also concerned about various problems with user-created content, based on our experience: When third-parties previously were enabled to create books in our format (even professional, business third parties), there were varying levels of quality. No matter who created the book, and no matter what it said in the information panel, we took the phone call / the complaint / the heat. (Yes, our books aren't all of perfect quality, and there's probably a title that needs maintenance that's annoying you right now. :-)  But we do have consistent standards and regularly invest in fixing both books with many reported issues and ALL the books on an ongoing rotation basis. We can't do that with third-party created content.)

This would be less of an issue if most PBBs were a user's own, original content -- but most PBBs are actually public domain content. Often a duplication of something we already sell (thus competing with us, at the price of free), or something we intend to produce (which would be nearly all public domain content in the biblical studies area).

So yes, we want to protect our business model and keep our customers from competing with us using our own tools. Which sounds unfriendly, but at some level is essential and normal: it's why the Apple App store rejects some apps that compete with Apple, why the Amazon Echo won't let you build a third-party skill that reads audio books (that could compete with their Audible offerings), etc. Businesses don't like to build the tools of their own destruction. Yes, it happens, and sometimes you have to take some lost revenue in order to win customer goodwill, but there has to be a line somewhere.

(And, in theory, if we did just eat this small lost sales on PD content, but made it super easy to share and use PBBs -- and even created the originally planned PBB store where you could sell or giveaway PBBs that were then easily integrated into other users' libraries, we'd probably end up spending a lot of time playing whack-a-mole, and making people angry, as we tried to enforce whatever copyright and non-duplicative-to-existing-Logos-offerings rules we put in place.)

- All of this is something we might still endure and invest in if it enabled us to do what PBB was intended to do: let you publish your own content in Logos format for personal (or even shared) use. But....

NOBODY does that. *

* In this context 'NOBODY' does not mean zero, but is practically zero in terms of the percentage of people using our platform.

We did an analysis of the books run through the PBB system, and not only are close to zero of them actually 'personal' books (and there mostly sermons, which we're now planning to support through different tools, including SoundFaith.com, with integration with Logos searching), but a huge number are actually copyrighted titles scanned, exported, or otherwise brought into the system.

So, enabling PBB sync to mobile, or a PBB store, would be investing a lot more work to not only decrease sales of our public domain titles, but (mostly) enabling what's likely illegal (or legally dubious 'fair-use') distribution of copyrighted titles.

In theory, if we skipped the store and only enabled sync of your own files, we might be in the DMCA safe harbor zone, and not responsible for the copyright violations, and unlikely to get takedown notices in light of the fact that the files would stay within each user's own file storage / sync data... but it's a lot of work to support a not great scenario.

And, lastly, NOBODY uses PBB. *

* Same asterisk. Yes, I know that's not true -- that's why this thread is here. But in the big picture of all our users, PBB is a feature used by a tiny group of users who are passionate about it and have many resources in the system, but represent, as a group, only a tiny fraction of our user base.

None of these issues alone is the reason PBB doesn't get attention, and none of these issues are black-and-white. It's all muddy and has 'vague feelings' attached. :-) That's why it's been hard to be super-clear.... we want to support certain scenarios, and some users want those too, but reality aligns more with other scenarios, which we're not excited about for both technical and business reasons....

The scenarios we'd like to support are:

1) Users archiving and retrieving (and even sharing) their own sermons. We'll be addressing this with specialized tools and databases. (Sermon Editor, SoundFaith.com and more to come.)

2) Users being able to store articles, research, and clippings for their own purposes -- a kind of clippings file. We're considering addressing this with support for searchable attachments to Notes, a long-standing request. PDF, audio, video, etc. (No date yet, but it's a planned feature. And please note that attached documents wouldn't have all the functionality of actual notes or native resources.)

3) Users archiving and sharing the results of their study that aren't really monograph length, but are worth sharing. We'll support this through improvements to document sharing, and particularly by improving discovery of what's publicly available.

4) Users creating, sharing and even sellling their own monographs. We thought PBB was a solution for this, but now realize its more rare than we thought, and still best served by going through a 'publisher', whether third-party or our own Lexham Press. 

We do not have plans to 'kill' the PBB feature or disable what already exists. We haven't announced the death of PBB because we don't intend to take anything away, but we have announced that mobile sync and the store are on hold. I'm still not sure, even with all this, that we won't eventually do these things, but right now, based on present use cases and number of users, it's at the very bottom of our priority list.

I hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding. Thanks!

-- Bob

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 10:07 AM

Bob Pritchett:

- There are surprising technical difficulties: chief among them are that we don't do a local index on mobile devices. (Yet. And maybe never. But that's a whole technical problem itself.) So we have to search the whole catalog on the server, and that whole catalog takes nearly 24 hours to index. But at least it only needs to be reindexed when we create a new resource, so no more than once a day. Which just barely works. Then we filter out results for books you don't own. (I may be glossing over details here, but it's generally correct.)

Adding user-created PBB's to this story dramatically increases the number of titles, could delay indexing to where we can't do it in 24 hours, and really clutters the index, because a massive number of PBB books are the same book created independently by many people, due to sharing of source files and recompiling of them.

I think we have our answer. The way Logos designed indexing for the mobile client prohibits them for allowing our personal book content to seamlessly integrate into the mobile environment. Too bad since it would have provided more user benefit to have our content available. Personally, I like having my research and writings inside Logos. Having all of one's personal writings in Logos would provide much more user loyalty to the software.

Since no marketing organization would go against engineering to request that large of an engineering redesign, I have resigned myself that my personal book content will never be synced to a Logos mobile app. I will either eventually get a Microsoft Surface Pro (ugh!) to run a full version of Verbum or continue with my remote access to my Macbook Pro from my iPad using a remote login utility like Splashtop Pro. 

Very disappointing.

Agape,

Steve

Posts 10039
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 11:05 AM

Well, Stephen, look on the bright side ... Logos sees much more profit with DSS and Vulgate interlinears (the underlying connectors), and stuff like that. Which means academic plus sermons.  I see that as major (assuming Bob's logic anyway).

I'm one of the double-none'rs ... PB'er and my own stuff. Well, except for Dorothy Day ... I don't think Logos has the guts for Dorothy Day.

But also true, I don't use all that much .... Libby's the one.  A triple None'r!


Posts 1064
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 1:14 PM

As usual, Bob has communicated a very sensible, transparent, honest, and thoughtful response to user concerns. Unfortunately, I suspect there will be some for whom this very well-thought-out and transparent response will not be good enough. 

One thing that I have gleaned through an in-depth examination of the thoughts expressed in these forums is that some users seem to have lost sight of the fact that there are several million registered users of the Logos platform, hundreds of thousands of active users, tens of thousands of very active users, and thousands of extremely active users (like most of us in these forums), and a few hundred crazy-smart amazing users (like Graham, Mark, MJ, Rosie, etc – sorry – had to throw that one in for fun). In other words, I think some have lost sight of just how many users there are, and thus make the (faulty) assumption that the small segment of users who have rallied together in hopes of pressuring Faithlife into catering to their particular demands actually represents a larger segment of the user populace than they actually do. For instance, several in this forum have stated that Faithlife has “lost sight of its customers' desires” (I'm paraphrasing…I can't remember exact wordage), and could be, thus, in danger of hindering future profitability (IE: folding under; biting the dust; calling it quits; kaputs!).

Yet it would be more accurate to say that Faithlife is not catering to their individual, specific desires. Just because Faithlife isn't fulfilling the demands of a small segment of users, and I do mean small (this is the point they are blindly ignoring - no matter how articulate their response to the contrary might be), this in no way means that Faithlife has lost sight of the broader picture.

Even if every forum user in this thread seemed to think Faithlife was not considering their input, it still does not mean that they do not have a handle on what the majority of their customer base wants / desires /needs. In other words, a few trees simply cannot, and should not, attempt to speak for the entire forest, no matter how high they might tower in the forest or how big around those trees are [ok…I am NOT calling anyone fat in this post…that was for illustrative purposes, only!]. Instead, they should remember that they are but one of many, many trees in the forest. It’s much like the passionate democratic voter who thinks that, somehow, his vote should count more simply because he speaks louder, talks more, signs more petitions, attends more rallies, carries a bigger stick, can rally the troops together in the cleverest way, or has the gift of poignant, articulate expression. In the end, they are but one vote. This is not intended to devalue them or their vote in any way - quite the contrary - but it does serve to remind them not to overvalue themselves as a voter. None of us should make assumptions, expressed or implied (most often implied), that our desires carry more weight because we have the ability to garner a following and convince others that they, too, cannot live without the features we ourselves think we cannot live without.

In the end, if we are honest, many of the vocal, stone-throwing scenarios we see in the forums are usually motivated by a small few (sometimes the same small few), and really do not represent what the larger segment of users actually want or need (for example, I have no desire to have PBBs on my mobile device...I mean, sure, if it were available, I would use it, but it isn't something I would think twice about otherwise). Yet one would think that I am represented by this vocal minority here and thus I do want and need this feature. Many others probably wouldn't have thought that much about this feature either, until they were exposed to the vocal minority’s rants and raves, and then decided, "Oh, yeah, man, I gotta have this. Like Jesus said, I will most certainly perish without BOTH repentance and PBB on my mobile device." I do not mean to say that the feature request isn’t a valid one. It is. But in the large scheme of things, it is way, way down the list for anyone who honestly and rationally examines the functionality of the software and Bible study processes (for example – the new Concordance feature would be much more valuable to the average Bible study student than the ability to sync a PD PBB resource to their mobile device – a resource they can access in other places).

Now I realize that even as I write this those few in the vocal minority are thinking about their next strategy, how they will articulate their response, the points they will levy against the rest of us, how they will respond in a way that justifies their accusations that Faithlife has lost sight of their desires and their wishes as a customer, and how Faithlife is on the way out of business because their wishes are not regarded as the 11th Commandment of Exodus 20. However, they will not and cannot prove in any uncertain terms the fact that, given the size of their customer base, Faithlife doesn't adequately comprehend, and in fact appreciate, what the needs and desires of their customer base actually are. It simply isn't fair to assert that Faithlife doesn't value one's patronage or that one has been ignored or forgotten simply because their demands are not met – in fact, excuse the bluntness – but it is rather childish! And it isn't fair to accuse Faithlife of a lack of transparency simply because they do not supply the kind of answers one wishes, in the manner one wishes, at the moment one wishes, all in the Authorized King James User Version. Heaven forbid they should give us an NIV answer, or an ESV answer when we have demanded a KJV only answer of them! Common folks, let’s get real, get reasonable, and focus on what matters in life. 

Let me also say that I, for one, take issue with the accusations that Bob and the Faithlife team leave people in the dark. To me, this is nothing more than the use of hyperbole as propaganda to garner support for one's cause – the use of drama to effect a few loyal followers to support one’s cause and increase influence (we call that “control” in the church; we’ll call it influence here). I actively use several other software platforms (mainly because there are resources available through them that I cannot get in Logos [the mass of Broadman and Holman resources that can only be purchased on WORDSearch, for example]). And in none - yes, I definitively said "none" - of those other platforms do the founder and CEO of the company ever communicate directly with their users (at least not in the manner or frequency that Bob does - not even close).

I think that Bob is remarkably transparent and honest with forum users, more so than he should ever be expected. I think that he is also very kind and gracious, given the barrage of attacks and accusations that are levied against him and his Christian company (I take them personally, and I'm not him..I can't imagine how some of these forum post must make him feel. Unless he has skin of steel, I'm sure that some of these accusations and attacks are heart-wrenching to him. But then again, I would imagine that those with the loudest voices are probably the least likely, sadly and unfortunately, to be concerned about that fact, so I will move forward). His reply today is prima facie evidence that Bob and the team do respond to users, and they care about what users need and want. I mean, he's the CEO of a multimillion dollar for-profit corporation. Yet he takes the time to draft a kind and transparent response to user concerns - in the middle of his work day. This should be good enough for those who have voiced their concerns in this forum. Unfortunately, I suspect it will not be. 

For those whom Bob's response will not be good enough, I asked you to take a breath – then take a moment to think about what's really important. There are so many things going on in this world that are much more important than whether not we can see our personal books on our mobile devices. I mean, in the last month hundreds of people have lost their homes due to flooding. Everyday Christians are being murdered by radical Islam. There's a very good chance that a woman who considers the murder of unborn children and the union of same-sex couples in holy matrimony to be ethically pleasing and morally upright will become our president (this is especially sad because, outside of this particular candidate, America has never been more ready for our first female president!).

So let's leverage the power of Logos, the best Bible study software known to man, to do more Bible study. Let's be thankful for all of the advancements and innovation that the Faithlife team have brought to us over the years. Let's celebrate the functionalities we already have and become more grounded in God's Word through them, in order that we can leverage the power of His Word to transform our homes, our communities, our workplaces, and then our world. Please friends, let's quit arguing over a drippy faucet when the dam outside our back door is about break. 

Remember the words of the Apostle Paul “…I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am” (Philippians 4:11).  Let’s also learn to be content with whatever set the functionalities we have or do not have on our mobile devices. Our goal – no, our desire - as Christian should be to learn how to be content in the good times and in the bad times – how to be content with what we have. Somehow, as Christians, we’ve convinced ourselves that we can only be content when others, IE: the Faithlife team, are bowing down to our every wish and command. Yet for those that hope in God and who learn to turn their focus toward Him, contentment can and will come, and it will be realized the day we learn to be grateful for what we have, respectful, honorable, and upright in our pursuit of what we do not have, and joyful and thankful for the things we come to realize we shall never have – even if that includes the absence of PBBs on our iPads.

Blessing in Christ, and love to each of my fellow Logos 4, 5, 6, and 7 [and I guess Libronix, too] users. Big Smile

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 1064
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 1:16 PM

So sorry for all the above typos...I typed that on a mobile device. 

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 27447
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 1:32 PM

Myke Harbuck:
I typed that on a mobile device.

You are my hero. Big Smile

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1064
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 1:42 PM

alabama24:

Myke Harbuck:
I typed that on a mobile device.

You are my hero. Big Smile

by the way, Alabama24, in all seriousness, I truly truly did mean to include you in the list of "crazy smart amazing logos users" in my long treaties above. I just, honestly, forgot your name while I was typing. But you are certainly in that league of users.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 10486
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 4:30 PM

Myke Harbuck:
I definitively said "none" - of those other platforms do the founder and CEO of the company ever communicate directly with their users (at least not in the manner or frequency that Bob does - not even close).

On this, I must disagree. I no longer use Accordance, but Helen Brown, David Lang, and others did/do communicate frequently with their customer base. I will agree that Bob Pritchett—and other FL executives—communicate regularly with their users, but I disagree that we would therefore tarnish the name of other makers of Bible software.

Posts 1064
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 4:43 PM

Jack Caviness:

Myke Harbuck:
I definitively said "none" - of those other platforms do the founder and CEO of the company ever communicate directly with their users (at least not in the manner or frequency that Bob does - not even close).

On this, I must disagree. I no longer use Accordance, but Helen Brown, David Lang, and others did/do communicate frequently with their customer base. I will agree that Bob Pritchett—and other FL executives—communicate regularly with their users, but I disagree that we would therefore tarnish the name of other makers of Bible software.

 Jack, I agree with you, and you and I are not in disagreement, technically. I think maybe you missed the caveat to my statement, where I said that Bob's communication  is qualitatively better in manner and frequency than with other CEOs.  As a user of Accordance, I have experienced firsthand that what you're saying is true. But it's still not near as gracious, transparent, or frequent as Bob's communication with his users.  That's what I was trying to say. Maybe I did it poorly. Sorry. 

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 2375
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 4:46 PM

Bob Pritchett:

We did an analysis of the books run through the PBB system, and not only are close to zero of them actually 'personal' books (and there mostly sermons, which we're now planning to support through different tools, including SoundFaith.com, with integration with Logos searching), but a huge number are actually copyrighted titles scanned, exported, or otherwise brought into the system.

Thanks for the answer. Have read it – twice!

As for what I have added as PBB many were because Logos added some of the resources from a library but not all. I added the rest of that library as PBB files.

With so few using the PBB feature I am not sure why you added the sync for PBB between systems. EXCEPT for the quote above: We could build the case that you allowed us to UPLOAD PBBs just so that you could do that ANALYSIS!.

With so few of us using the PBB sync feature it could be dropped. [[Easy for me to say I have not used it and have not uploaded a single PBB]] For the very ‘FEW’ of us that will be a pain. But we always had the option of re compiling the PBB on each system.

A PBB has an extension of lbspbb.

Currently when we wish to keep a resource on our mobile unit for use off line we download that resource. The APP downloads the resource file to the special location that the APP uses for a local library and tells the APP that it can use the file.

What if Logos added a SCAN for PBB function, where that function would do just what the download function does except that it looks in DOCUMENTS for *.lbspbb files instead of looking on your servers, copy or move them to the special location that the APP uses for its local library and tells the APP that it can use the file. It will not be indexed. We may not be able to search them. But we should be able to read them.

My current way is to move the DOCX file to the mobile Documents directory and use an edit program.

Posts 2822
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 9:27 PM

I always appreciate Bob taking time to share his perspective, and it always clears up the situation.  I also appreciate his assurance that he will not take away Personal Books.

Personally, I could care less if they ever sync to mobile, though I know many others do.  I really do not care if they sync at all.  I took care of all that by using the Surface Pro so that my personal books are always available.

I think it would have been helpful to have much earlier said that we are not going to be able to do some of the things that we specifically advertised the we would do, and give some of the reasons.  Keeping everyone guessing is not the best way to do business.

I do want to say that for me a very important part of personal books is adding public domain material that Logos will never publish, or least hasn't so far.  Take the Francis Asbury Journal, for example.  I would like to point out that on several occasions that I made personal books which Logos later added, I deleted my personal books and bought the Logos version.  I did that for two reasons.  One was loyalty to Logos, (and frankly, I feel at times I have been more loyal Logos than they have been to me, but that is neither here nor there.)  The other reason was that the Logos book is always going to be a much better book than a personal book that I make, and will obviously work better with my library.  I can't imagine  preferring my personal book to a fully tagged Logos version.  So I don't fully buy the competing against Logos argument.  At least I haven't.  And I have gone to great lengths to get author's permission to make personal books and to share the file on the files forum a number of times.

So I do take issue with some of what Bob said.  But on the whole, I agree.  Customers can be so much trouble.  Sometimes you could have a real smooth business operation if it weren't for customers.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1932
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 12:04 AM

Thanks Bob for your comments.  I wish they could have been expressed earlier.  While there are always difficult customers, the forum has been a fairly good source of feedback and filled with many of us who (while frustrated) actually understand there are issues (some we will not know about) faced by FL. Some feedback:

1. Why can there not a way to have PBB stored on a user's document folder, and not on the server?  That allows users to use personal books, sermons and public domain books which will never enter into Logos program...This idea may not allow syncing.  That is fine.  But can this be a solution to the indexing issues?

2.  While FL created the system, it is understandable that you do not want PBB to be turned into a private business of selling pbbs.  But it seems to me you can state that and put into the user agreement that pbbs cannot be sold and that pbbs of logos content cannot be made, and that if a pbb is made of a resource that at some point FL plans to produce and sell, that it will at that point be disallowed and deleted as a pbb.

3.  You mentioned that PBB is used by a tiny group of users.  Thanks for letting us know that.  Because I had no idea.  It would have helped if that was known through the years. It could alleviate frustration.  But at the same time, I am not sure what tiny means. Over the last 5 years, you have not emphasized this feature.  I think it was popular 5 years ago, was it not?  Is it not possible that due to non development and a de-emphasis of PBB, that new user base (which has significantly grown in the last 5 years) do not use the feature? 

4. I use pbb now primarily for two reasons:  sermons and creating public domain books that will never be in Logos.  I have a lot of other pbb books from the hayday of pbbs which I would happily delete if you wanted...but there seems to be no way to permanently delete them.  Why?

As for what you want to support

1.  I like the idea of a sermon archiving support but why do you need to archive my sermons?  Why cannot they remain personal to me?  And would archiving them...this idea of yours...allow us to have the feel of a personal book in Logos that is actually our sermons?  Because that is what I am looking for.  A Bible open on the left side of the screen and my sermon, or a bunch of sermons open on the right side of the screen.  Is that type of scenario what you have in mind for the sermon archiving support?

2.  Your idea of storing articles, research, pdfs seems like a possible solution to the pbb dilemma.  It is good to know there is thought going into an idea like this.

3.  I wish and hope that if there is an archiving of our own studies (not monograph length) that we would still be able to read public domain books not available in Logos via pdf.  They do not need all functionality like a regular logos book.  Just the ability to read in the platform and underline parts of the pdf

4.  I do not understand why you would even think of a system where users could sell their own monographs.  Seems like the pbb problem once again.

Finally, if pbb is not used often, if it is so rare, used by a tiny base of users, then it most likely is not cutting into your bottom line and I fail to see why there has been so much silence over the years on this issue.  You emphasize that it is a tiny group of users.  Then there is a very easy way to fix the pbb issues.  Syncing clearly should not be supported due to reasons you have given and FL could have stated that all along.  All we really wanted was to not be in the dark about the development or lack of it for PBB. 

If pbb is not used often, if it is so rare, used by a tiny base of users, then can you give the ability to permanently delete user content?  Can you simply add to the user agreement that pbbs cannot be sold, cannot be made of books already in logos...can our user content be stored locally on our computers rather than on the server...the ability to simply have it appear from my computer into the logos program locally.

I realize I am not a technician and some of these ideas may not be feasible.  But please know that I am writing to brainstorm ideas.

Thanks again for finally weighing in on this topic.

Mark

Posts 76
Aaron W | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 5:36 AM

"but a huge number are actually copyrighted titles scanned, exported, or otherwise brought into the system"

1. I don't want the ability to store my PBB files on Logos' servers.  It's terrifying to me that Logos has read and reads my own files while I have no way of deleting or removing them from their servers. It's really none of Logos' business what I put into the program, itself. I would much prefer to use a cloud storage option (dropbox, etc.) or have a direct connection to my tablet to share my own private PBB files.  I don't want Logos in my business, but Bob's response clearly shows that they are all up in there.

"if we did just eat this small lost sales on PD content, but made it super easy to share and use PBBs"

2. The assumption that we users want to SHARE our PBB's with others is a strange jump to me. How do we go from "syncing with mobile apps" to "sharing" our PBB's? That, to me, is where the real issue is. It just seems like, if this is such a small percentage of users anyway, the impact of Public Domain sales would be negligible.

"it's why the Apple App store rejects some apps that compete with Apple"

3. Logos wants to be like Apple, but Apple has thrown the net a lot wider than Bob is admitting here.  Apple has developed products that work seamlessly together but also are accessible enough to use third party systems. Bob's allusion to the App Store conveniently ignores the fact that you can download multiple apps to read multiple book formats. You can also download multiple apps that can play music from all sorts of other sources. 

I'd really just like the ability to sync and read my private PBB files between my devices without Logos intruding in my business.

I realize that nothing is going to change Logos' mind in this, but it also is a major part of the reason I've frozen my spending with Logos. It's clearly a business decision to try to monopolize a system and try to milk revenue from people in a constant stream. 

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