An interesting possibility

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Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jul 31 2016 9:48 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/31/does-this-rock-explain-why-egyptians-are-biblical-villains.html?via=newsletter&source=DDAfternoon 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9256
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 11:51 AM

I've long thought Egypt was a major player, but not the area near the Nile (Egypt extended all the way to Damascus and beyond, depending the period).

 'My' clues were looking for an east-west body of water, a pharoah that survived, and mining expertise. The other clue is Judges non-mention of Egypt in Israel, and the favorable accomodation of Ramesis III taking all the Temple stuff.  A bit curious.

Then when Joseph took Mary to Egypt ... the Jezreel valley ... oh wait, wrong century.


Posts 1266
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 1:01 PM

This book gives an overview of current research on the subject: Levy & al :Israel's Exodus in Transdisciplinary Perspective: Text, Archaeology, Culture, and Geoscience

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3319047671/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

From last year, thus I think Logos could consider to provide it

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 1:57 PM

Veli Voipio:

This book gives an overview of current research on the subject: Levy & al :Israel's Exodus in Transdisciplinary Perspective: Text, Archaeology, Culture, and Geoscience

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3319047671/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

From last year, thus I think Logos could consider to provide it

It does appear to be interesting.  Is Springer a division of Brill?  Pricewise it would almost seem to be.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 2:09 PM

Denise:
I've long thought Egypt was a major player, but not the area near the Nile (Egypt extended all the way to Damascus and beyond, depending the period).

What many seem to forget is that what we read in these accounts is not history, but theology.  Some claim that if it can be shown to be in error in some respect then it undermines one's faith.  That is only true if your faith is in history rather than in God.  These narratives were written long after the events which gave rise to them when remembrance of what actually happened had long faded (in some cases exilic).  They were not concerned with history, but with theology.  If one wishes to insist on the literal reality of the events, what about the picture of God defeating the chaos dragon Rahab?  There the would insist that this is poetic, not historical, but how can they insist that the exodus narrative is history rather than theology.  While it may be true that those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it, the exodus is a totally unique event.  It is interesting to note that Hazor was not that distant from Dan where Gershom, the son of Moses was said to have officiated with an ephod before a pagan image.  One of the strands of the Pentateuch is designated as E for "Elohist" and said to stem from a Northern province — no conclusion, simply something to consider.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 886
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 3:05 PM

George Somsel:

Denise:
I've long thought Egypt was a major player, but not the area near the Nile (Egypt extended all the way to Damascus and beyond, depending the period).

What many seem to forget is that what we read in these accounts is not history, but theology.  Some claim that if it can be shown to be in error in some respect then it undermines one's faith.  That is only true if your faith is in history rather than in God.  These narratives were written long after the events which gave rise to them when remembrance of what actually happened had long faded (in some cases exilic).  They were not concerned with history, but with theology.  If one wishes to insist on the literal reality of the events, what about the picture of God defeating the chaos dragon Rahab?  There the would insist that this is poetic, not historical, but how can they insist that the exodus narrative is history rather than theology.  While it may be true that those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it, the exodus is a totally unique event.  It is interesting to note that Hazor was not that distant from Dan where Gershom, the son of Moses was said to have officiated with an ephod before a pagan image.  One of the strands of the Pentateuch is designated as E for "Elohist" and said to stem from a Northern province — no conclusion, simply something to consider.

George are you a latent Neo-Documentarian? I see nothing new in Egyptian rule over the north of Palestine during the second millennium. It is well known that the border between Egypt and Mitanni was situated in the area of the Orontes river. 

Posts 9256
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 3:21 PM

George, I'd agree the literal text doesn't propose history (though a detailed travelogue seems suspiciously historical). But I'd also say we don't know  (from the text) authorship, when, why, or for whom. So, as Veli notes in his Amazon comment, we apply speculation, whether reed mats (interesting, Veli), or theologies ( a literal pharoah god hard on the job of countering the new YHWH god; new name anyway).

But, as with Navajo accounts of their origens, a grain of truth always accompanies an attractive account ... enough to create credibility. And later, speculation.


Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 4:23 PM

David Knoll:
George are you a latent Neo-Documentarian? I

I don't know whether I am or not.  Define it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 886
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 4:30 PM

Here is a short description by one of its proponents:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/bad368008.shtml

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 5:19 PM

David Knoll:
George are you a latent Neo-Documentarian?

I suppose I am — of some stripe or other (or perhaps a checkerboard).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1530
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 8:31 PM

I just completed reading this book and it blew my mind out of the water!!!!! I recommended this a long time ago to LOGOS, and I still cannot believe they do not have it as yet. I would recommend this book to anyone. Once I started reading it, I could not stop until I had reached the end. It opened my spiritual eyes and mind to so many things that I had never seen before relating to the biblical texts of The Exodus from Egypt.

https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Case-Lennart-Moller/dp/8772477083/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1470021861&sr=1-1&keywords=Lennart+Moller 

Learn new archeological evidence of the Biblical Exodus. An exciting and interesting book full of new facts and evidence, see proof of Exodus. Understand the location of The Exodus God's and Kings, Pharaoh and Moses conflict. This exciting new book supports the Biblical story of the Exodus. Use with an Exodus Commentary or as an Exodus Bible Study. The book of Exodus will come alive and very real. The Exodus Case reveals the discoveries of a team of scientists and researchers who travel in the footsteps of Moses and Israelites on their journey from Egypt to Canaan.
Learn new facts that strongly support the Book of Exodus. Is the real Mount Sinai, "Horeb", located in today's Saudi Arabia? Where did Moses lead the People of Israel through Red Sea? Where was UR located? Is there a place where burning sulphur has fallen? Does Mount Sinai have a lot of water in the meddle of the desert? Is Joseph in Egyptian history? What about Moses' role in Egyptian history? What was the route of Exodus? More than 790 color illustrations and photos help you get good answers to these questions and much more in The Exodus Case. This is the third edition of the Exodus Case, with 133 new pages, 12 new tables and more than 230 new images and figures. In total, there are more than 790 color illustrations on the 448 pages.

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 31 2016 9:03 PM

Kenute P. Curry:

Moller may indeed be a brilliant man, but I have seen much error propounded by brilliant men operating outside their field of expertise.  I wouldn't get too excited by this.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 353
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 1 2016 1:37 AM

Some interesting views in this thread.

There are many brilliant scholars out there providing diverse views in their books about Bible events and those views are fascinating to read - and I enjoy reading them. Faithlife provides a service to us in making available many of these books electronically.  Yet in reading those texts, personally I hold fast to the Bible being authoritative and true in every respect (including historically and theologically) and this determines how I read those scholars and not the other way round. Exodus as an historical event has much to teach us theologically - but make no mistake - it was historical. Thankfully, there are scholars who also hold that view - but to be sure, the Bible's content would remain true - even if not one scholar said so.

I acknowledge each of us reads to fulfill for different purposes and its a joy to read thoughtful discussions on these threads as to why particular books are favored over others. What we bring to our reading and why we read what we do is what makes some of the book choices so fascinating.  Keep well Paul   

   

Posts 2851
Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 1 2016 2:23 AM

"Scholars have been skeptical about the historicity of the Exodus for over 70 years."

well

Believers know it's true since 2000 Years Wink

Posts 353
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 1:22 AM

Good point Sascha ! Yes

Posts 694
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 1:45 PM

Sascha John:

"Scholars have been skeptical about the historicity of the Exodus for over 70 years."

well

Believers know it's true since 2000 Years Wink

A large number of archeologists give no credence to the Bible.  They would rather stake their reputation on a single rock with a cryptic carving than concede that a Biblical passage might actually hold truth.

Posts 9256
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 3:49 PM

Just curious ... which cryptic carving are the large number of archeologists looking at? Sounds like the literal stumbling block.


Posts 694
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 5:26 PM

My point is that, rather than using the Bible as an informational source, they seem to ignore Biblical texts and behave as if they are totally unsubstantiated fables.  This is my take on reading articles from archeological reviews.

Posts 9256
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 5:53 PM

Oh ... ok.  A rocky point!

In your position, I would have noted the abysmal record of serious Exodus apologetics in Logos. Certainly commentaries and devotionals. But only 1 resource countering the latest Exodus critics ... in 1863. And another irrigation inspector from Goshen .... a century ago.  Versus about 8 heavy resources from the cryptic carving enthisiasts.


Posts 1266
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 2 2016 11:14 PM

The (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) does not have any book about Exodus, although that search finds 57 resources in Logos.

In Africa most ethnic groups have stories about origins, and they normally tell how came from somewhere to the current place. And actually we ourselves have similar stories, for example most of us can tell that their our ancestors crossed the sea miraculously (thinking the ships like the Puritans had).

One problem is in the interpretation of the Bible. For example the number system: I think they used different number systems in the Pentateuch, as was generally the case in the ancient Near east. The other problem is the scarce finds and their interpretation in the archaeology: certainly there must be remains of a large group if they spent one generation's time in on place. But even if the archaeologist find such remains from an estimated area and estimated time period, how would you find out who they where and where they came from and where they went to?

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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