Notes Compromise idea

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Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 5 2010 2:26 PM

Kevin Becker:
It seems to me the main appeal of being able to have notes in Logos is the convenience of having them inside the program and the ability to search them.

Certainly the appeal is to have notes which are part of the Logos program. Notes you can search, notes linked to verses and articles and therefore listed and organised by thier links. It seems to me the real power of notes in Logos has nothing to do with word-processing in terms of formatting, publishing or even grammar and spell checking. As long as you can cut/paste into Word, Publisher, One Note.... then there is no need to "keep up" with or become a word processing program. L3 already had everything needed. In L3 I can keep note files for different purposes. I can attach them to verses and other items so that opening the note file or the chapter gives me access to an organised set of notes, the notes can be as long as needed, include links and other quotes etc. It is a really integrated way to study and prepare. Parts I want to copy to Word or elsewhere can be copied.

If we create notes in an indexed Onenote file, (I do use Onenote) we will be dependant on the future of Onenote and so will our data. Also, would the Onenote information really integrate in both directions with the Logos files, and would the growing Onenote files be organised appropriately when you clicked a link in logos? (As an example, in Logos I can hover on the note icon on John 1.1 and the pop-up shows the note, then click on the icon and the relevant notefile opens with the whole list of notes throughout John's gospel. Likewise if I am in the note on John 1.5 and click the note title on the list, the bible text opens.)

The other thing ofcourse is this; "To make use of notes in Logos, please ensure you already own Onenote from Microsoft.."

Posts 41
Paul Davey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 7 2010 3:18 AM

One problem with using external files is that it does not get synchronised - so when you go to another computer, your notes are not there.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 7 2010 4:56 AM

Edward hyndman:
The other thing ofcourse is this; "To make use of notes in Logos, please ensure you already own Onenote from Microsoft.."

My suggestion was not to tie external indexing to OneNote specifically. It was only one of the examples I used in a list that I didn't want to be taken exhaustively. I included other file formats that will likely be around for many years (.doc/x, .pdf) so the worries about the inability to continue to use that data at some point should be greatly reduced.

Paul Davey:

One problem with using external files is that it does not get synchronised - so when you go to another computer, your notes are not there.

That is a good observation. However, there are third party solutions (Live Mesh) that can be used to synchronize files across multiple computers and with the increasing reliance on cloud based computing I think we will see many other similar solutions.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 4:33 AM

Honestly, I do not like this idea, I don't want to depend on two programs for my notes when the solution is simple, just fix the problem and bring Logos up to the level that many other programs already are at.

If you look at other paid for bible programs this is not a problem in most of them, and neither is it in some free bible study programs.  It is a fact that there are free programs out there that have many features in their note taking abilites that Logos does not!  Some of them allow for links, printing, rearrangement, they are searchable and much more.  In fact you can write whole books in the note area in some free programs and even add your notes to searchable collections.

As the leader, in the bible study programs, I have to admit, that Logos lags behind in this area, and they need to bring their program up to the standards set by others in the field.  Instead, Logos 4 has  been a step back!

Not everyone understands the importance of this feature to increasing their level of bible study, but once a person does, a good note taking system is not an option, it is one of the keys to a good overall program, just like searching is!  Do we really want to have to do the same research over and over, or do we want to have away to arrange it so we can build on the information we already have?  And do we want this information to be easily found and in a format that we can share with others when ever the need might arise?

I believe Logos will make the changes that are needed, and I don't believe it will be that hard for them to make the changes, in the past I think, they just were not aware of the many ways this feature could improve the over all bible study experience, Bob only seen it from his point of view.  I think these forums have helped him see things from other points of view. We will see soon!

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 269
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 11:21 AM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

I don't want to depend on two programs for my notes when the solution is simple, just fix the problem and bring Logos up to the level that many other programs already are at.

If you look at other paid for bible programs this is not a problem in most of them, and neither is it in some free bible study programs.  It is a fact that there are free programs out there that have many features in their note taking abilites that Logos does not!  Some of them allow for links, printing, rearrangement, they are searchable and much more.  In fact you can write whole books in the note area in some free programs and even add your notes to searchable collections.

As the leader, in the bible study programs, I have to admit, that Logos lags behind in this area, and they need to bring their program up to the standards set by others in the field.  Instead, Logos 4 has  been a step back!

I have to agree with you on the points you made here. 

While I would accept Logos linking it's note taking to a simple outside (already existing) word processor like Word Pad in Windows, I would much prefer my notes to be inside of Logos.  I also agree that Logos should provide at least the functionality that the Notes feature had in L3.

This is an actual need.  It is the only really logical way to collect Biblical research on a particular passage or topic.  And it's, by far, the most useful way.

I don't understand how Logos got the idea that this was not an important feature, and that users were not utilizing it.  Maybe they were collecting data from users who had not turned off reporting of statistics in their L3 options.  I am one of those who turned off reporting of statistics data a long time ago.

Could it be that Logos' information on how users were using L3 is faulty?  What if most people turned off reporting of statistics?  What if a user was not connected to the internet? I suspect that scenario's like this were really the case.

So, I for one, would really love to have at least the same ability in L4 as in L3.  And it would be nice to have improved features also, but I'd settle for what we had in Notes in L3.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 11:36 AM

Stein Dahl:
It is the only really logical way to collect Biblical research on a particular passage or topic.  And it's, by far, the most useful way.

I agree to you. My one exception is that I am willing to have many graphics or complex layouts to be created elsewhere and moved with a copy and paste into notes. Lists, tables, indenting, fonts etc. need to be available in notes themselves.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 11:47 AM

Stein Dahl:
So, I for one, would really love to have at least the same ability in L4 as in L3.  And it would be nice to have improved features also, but I'd settle for what we had in Notes in L3.

We use to say that L3 needs to be improved, and now we are saying that we wished that notes have the same functionality that they did in L3.

I will start using L4 when we have the same functionality that we had in L3 (for me - that will be having our TOC back), but I will not be happy.  Notes simply need to be improved over L3.  We need to be able to have tables, list, and to be able to embed graphics, sound files, and videos.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 12:41 PM

At least for myself, I want to put the blame of the importance of  the whole note taking idea on Logos Camp 1 and 2.  Before I bought those DVD's I thought about note taking the way that Bob P. has mentioned several times.

It was only through hearing and pondering about the things mentioned in those camps that I started to quickly out grow my old way of thinking about notes.  From those camps I started to see how note taking could actually make electronic bible study easier and more effective than ever before, by allowing me to be in charge of finding, rearranging and storing research in a way that would make it more useful to me forever!  Bible study is not just about searching for and finding information it is also about making that information so that it is the most helpful to me and so that I can find it and use it  whenever I need to quickly.

For the first time I understood I did not have to recreate my research time after time, I could collect it all in notes and tie those notes to either topics or verses, and I could share those notes with others in a blink of an eye, no longer do I have to run from resource to resource to share ideas with others I can have it all in a note file.

Because of the current state of note taking in Logos 4 I have resorted to keeping my notes in either Libronix 3 or believe it or not in a free bible software that allows me more freedom to save my notes in ways that are more helpful to me and those I want to share things with.  I don't like this, but this is what I have found to be the best work around for me, until things get better with Logos 4!

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 2:17 PM

I've written on this before in other threads, but since it is a HUGE ISSUE, I don't mind doing it again.

Notes isn't just important, it is AS IMPORTANT as the whiz-bang search capabilities that Logos has. In fact, I don't use L4 and its better searching function at all (less than 1%) because of its anemic notes functionality and a number of other issues. Occasional searching and what-not, but that's it. As I've said, I actually resent L4 because it has effectively scuttled the continued development of L3's notes functionality. Some posters in this thread have said that L3 was good enough...no, it had much room for improvement...but it is light years ahead of L4, which is going back to the caveman era, IMO.

I suspect that most Logos users use Notes for taking notes. Excuse me, but that is a tad bit pedestrian. I use Notes for PRESENTATION. It frankly boggles me that both Logos users and the company itself don't comprehend what Logos's 3rd platform is...or rather ought to be.  *P*R*E*S*E*N*T*A*T*I*O*N*

When I am doing a Bible study and I hover over a note and a pop-up show how the first sentence of B'reishiytth (Genesis) in Hebrew contains an embryo of the work of Messiah, that blows people away. They immediately begin asking me, "What software is this?"

My point? First, I couldn't do that in L4...because some L3-using nimnods complained about the pop-up windows being too big to see what is underneath them, so Bob fixed the "non-problem" by making notes in L4 2 in. sq. max. That's like putting square tires on a vehicle to keep it from rolling downhill when parked on an incline. It "solves the problem" but eradicates nearly all functionality of the vehicle. The way to solve the non-problem of big pop-ups is to MOVE THE CURSOR OFF OF THE NOTE ICONS. Second point is that Logos is an incredible program with tons of power, even more so in L4 than L3...but who knows this?

NO ONE...except for the insular few who use the program. At Camp Logos, Morris Proctor's favorite word when displaying L4's power is "amazing". Yeah, I suppose. But how many non-users are aware of this? It is a toss up between being either "criminal" or a "sin" that we have a program that has so much "WOW-factor" built into it, and then we take the fruit of our labor and transport it into the paltry likes of PowerPoint.

Logos should be designed so that presentation is one of the main components of its capabilities: Search, Notes, & Presentation are the three legs of what I do, and I ought to be able to use Logos to accomplish all of those tasks. I don't need or want Logos to be PowerPoint. I just want to take killer notes that I can attach to my bible and then have the pop-ups present in an effective way to help me make my points during my bible study presentations. That's how I use L3, though I have to fight the program to accomplish my intentions...still I can make do. L4? Not so much...or rather, not at all.

One factor that I was hoping would be included in L3 at some point is the ability to "pin" my notes so that the don't disappear when I move the cursor off of the note icon. Some of my notes are lengthy, running 15-20 pages or more. With the note "pinned" I could then scroll through the note and point at elements with the cursor. At present, I can't use the cursor once a note pops up because the pop-up disappears as soon as I move the cursor off the icon. This "pin" feature is already part of many Logos resources...lengthy footnotes and such use this feature...but the end user can't make use of it when creating personal notes.  Why?

Another problem with notes as in L3 is that I can't use the MS snipping tool to show you examples of my notes, again because of the fact that I can't pin them to the page. As soon as I try to capture the screen, the note goes away. This is a significant short-coming. I could list many others.

Like others, I turned off the "reporting" feature of L3 precisely because my notes were so important to me. I am composing a book and it is almost entirely being structured in my L3 notes. I suspect that others whose notes are very critical to what they do did just as I and others have reported doing. Even if I had known that Logos was gauging usage and making critical decisions that would negatively impact the future usage of the Notes feature, I still wouldn't have shared my notes...not wholesale in that fashion.

Some, but very few of my notes are of the "jotted thought" variety. Most are created to be seen, shown...presented. I make presentations with Logos as my platform, not the scrawn of PowerPoint. Notes should be powerful enough to effectively present from WITHIN the Logos program...without users having to make the extraneous step (and "step-down") of porting into PowerPoint.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 7:31 PM

David Paul:
Even if I had known that Logos was gauging usage and making critical decisions that would negatively impact the future usage of the Notes feature, I still wouldn't have shared my notes...not wholesale in that fashion.

I'm not certain but I believe this is a misrepresentation of what allowing Logos 3 to capture information did.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 5:21 AM

Jim, Stein, David,

I sympathize with desire to have the notes features of Logos be robust enough to be the repository for the fruits of my studies. I don't currently share that desire for a number of reasons, let me try to explain.

When I started using Logos as an undergrad I had the Scholar's library. The library contents were great for my Greek and Hebrew courses but when it came to Theology and Bible courses it didn't have enough information (nor I the money to buy the best resources) to fuel research for the papers I had to write. So when I was in the brick-and-mortar library all my notes were by hand or inputted into Word, because I would ultimately write the paper in Word. I ended up taking notes on what resources I had in Logos outside of Logos (or copied and pasted them out of Logos as soon as I was done) because the end result of my studies required me to use another program.

Nowadays notes are still an intermediate step for me, a repository from which to draw and structure a teaching/preaching outline. I find it very easy to go from OneNote to Word  to accomplish this. So yes, Logos 3's note feature wasn't very robust, yes Logos 4 is, in many ways but not all, a step backward in this area. I am used to using Logos for what it does well, research and searching and another program for Notes. Logos would have to astronomically improved the notes feature to convince me to change my system (I would accept PBB as part of this solution as DominicM is holding out for).

I truly hope that Logos can improve notes to meet your needs. But regardless of what Logos does or doesn't do with notes, I think it would be fantastic if Logos could extend the power of its search engine beyond its confines to other files on my hard-drive.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 12:29 PM

Kevin Becker:
I find it very easy to go from OneNote

I believe this is the intermediate step that several users resent because it requires that one give up the automatic indexing and searching that Logos provides for in the notes. It feels a bit like having auto-pilot on a car but not being able to use it. I am not opposed to having to use other software packages with Logos; I do for tree diagrams, argument mapping, etc. But I do expect to be able to copy the diagrams into Logos so that the appear whenever I research the relevant passage.

Perhaps, when we see the revised PBB's they may be the "notes" that many of us are seeking. But given the resource library structures as we have seen them thus far, I doubt that is the direction Logos is heading.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 12:46 PM

As greatly I would love to use Logos notes in any of their versions, I can't let myself because there is NO guarantee that my notes would convert to the next major upgrade.  What would help immensely is for an export to rtf. feature and maybe that is there or "in the works" so that I would not lose my work and have some kind of "escape pod' that is in Air Force One.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 12:47 PM

Joan Korte:
because there is NO guarantee that my notes would convert to the next major upgrade

Given how they are stored, I believe this to be an unfounded concern.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 12:50 PM

Begs the question, MJ,  are they stored in a format that anyone can access? I would love for you to elaborate so that my concern would disappear.Big Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 1:13 PM

Joan Korte:
Begs the question, MJ,  are they stored in a format that anyone can access?

I believe so. I believe that they are in an XML database.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 1:19 PM

Nah, I think rtf is much more accessible and is formatted for literature.  In all fairness to you, MJ, I am trying to win my friends over to Logos but they are not as computer literate as you and you are very much so, but they love to study the Bible.  So far, they are overwhelmed by the technical stuff e.g. indexing and notes would give them nightmares but being able to export them to doc or rtf makes sense to them.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 1:48 PM

Joan Korte:
export them to doc or rtf

XML is a universal format. The Open Office products use XML illustrating how easily XML is exported to other formats. Logos has built in the ability to export to several standard Microsoft formats, so your position confuses me.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 1:56 PM

Would you like to meet my friends?  Big Smile  I don't think you would be confused, then.  MJ, not everybody that has MS Word has MS Office.  And they don't know the Open Office format.  Please allow any of your confusion to be dispelled by what you do know that they don't.

Posts 164
Rick Harrell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 2:23 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

Honestly, I do not like this idea, I don't want to depend on two programs for my notes when the solution is simple, just fix the problem and bring Logos up to the level that many other programs already are at.

If you look at other paid for bible programs this is not a problem in most of them, and neither is it in some free bible study programs.  It is a fact that there are free programs out there that have many features in their note taking abilites that Logos does not!  Some of them allow for links, printing, rearrangement, they are searchable and much more.  In fact you can write whole books in the note area in some free programs and even add your notes to searchable collections.

Yup

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