Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

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This post has 268 Replies | 12 Followers

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:16 PM

Mike Binks:

Tony Thomas:

So, no real way to try it out for a month or two and see if you actually benefit from the features?

We assume that operating the 30 day money back guarantee will be difficult but Faithlife have not said that they are not applying it to NOW subscriptions. I am sure that if you rang Customer Service and explained that NOW really had nothing of interest for you they would find a way of doing the kind thing for you.

If they are truly interested in building a subscriber base, then a "try before you buy" program is a necessity, especially when you don't have a monthly subscription option.  I cannot believe that Logos is oblivious to this.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:17 PM

Batman:
Quite frankly, I was much happier with other software than Logos. 

Thankful for Logos visual filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression in English (along with hiding verse numbers):

Apologies since do not know of other Bible software than can highlight range of Greek verbal expression in Greek, English, German, Latin, and Spanish. Greek has a richer verbal system than English so verbal nuance/intensive can be lacking in English.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:18 PM

LOL! that made me chuckle. Thanks, Denise

Denise:

Sigh ... I guess I'm  the only one who remembers Chippy and Simon the Sorcerer.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:19 PM

Batman:
But, I find this whole "we're a business" to be more about greed than creating a Bible

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us for printed bibles - just so they can line their pockets.

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us to build churches - just so they can line their pockets

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that take our tithes just so that they can have a living  (and then they expect us to go to bible study in our free time with no pay)

On the whole I'm disgusted by the whole lot of them.

Or maybe that is how it is in an imperfect world.

Posts 323
Luuk Dondorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:22 PM

Mike Binks:

Tony Thomas:

So, no real way to try it out for a month or two and see if you actually benefit from the features?

We assume that operating the 30 day money back guarantee will be difficult but Faithlife have not said that they are not applying it to NOW subscriptions. I am sure that if you rang Customer Service and explained that NOW really had nothing of interest for you they would find a way of doing the kind thing for you.

You are correct they will apply the 30 day money back guarantee: see here under refunds subscription auto-renewal policy

Luuk

 

Posts 13392
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:43 PM

Diego Lara:

They should definitely provide a one month free trial, by disabling all the discounts so that no one abuses the free trial just to buy books at a discounted price. I agree I probably would hesitate to sign up for an entire year if I had not tried it first.

You could buy the feature set for $90 and return it after 30 days. That gives you (almost) a trial of Logos Now.

Posts 3475
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:45 PM

Tony Thomas:
If they are truly interested in building a subscriber base, then a "try before you buy" program is a necessity, especially when you don't have a monthly subscription option.  I cannot believe that Logos is oblivious to this.

I'm pretty sure that Faithlife already had a meaningful subscriber base before L7 came out, and I'm quite certain that it's expanded significantly this week.

Perhaps Faithlife will bring back a Try-before-you-buy option; perhaps it won't. It doesn't need to.

Posts 19
Houseonarock | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:02 PM

With all due respect this mandate was given to believers who had only the Pentateuch and a few letters.  So easy to get caught up in technology while missing the importance of the Holy Spirit. Do not get me wrong.  Knowing the original language can be of help, but was the spirit expecting all of this.  How did smith widdlesworth survive. An uneducated Plumber?  In many respects he was a lot  further down the road.  I refuse to be influenced by the profit motive.

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:06 PM

Not saying it isn't great. 
When does it stop? It's never ending. 

And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying. 

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:08 PM

Nice try. But, I will agree with that sentence. 

Mike Binks:

Batman:
But, I find this whole "we're a business" to be more about greed than creating a Bible

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us for printed bibles - just so they can line their pockets.

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that make money charging us to build churches - just so they can line their pockets

Not to mention the Capitalist rats that take our tithes just so that they can have a living  (and then they expect us to go to bible study in our free time with no pay)

On the whole I'm disgusted by the whole lot of them.

Or maybe that is how it is in an imperfect world.

Posts 930
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:10 PM

Batman:

Not saying it isn't great. 
When does it stop? It's never ending. 

And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying. 

It can stop for you wherever you want it to. Some people probably still use Logos 3 and get along happily. Others like more, but you don't have to do so.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:20 PM

Be careful, now. The groupies may get restless again.

I agree with you. Knowing the original languages are helpful. Technology is also great. But, at the same time, something just seems out of whack here. There's allowing the Spirit to teach us, and there's using technology to help us; I think both are needed (without the Spirit, the technology is worthless). But once again, something with this whole system here is way out of whack! I see packages that would be half what a new low end car would cost. I've seen colleges that charge less than what they are charging on some collections. 

I get it-- NOBODY is forcing anyone to buy anything. But, over the past 6-7 years I see I have racked up over $2000 in a system that is so complicated I have lost any desire to use. (People say it's easy. Sure. But, I find myself going online to get a verse rather than using my $2000+ software. Why? Because it's much much quicker. And, if I know part of a verse I can google it and get it in seconds, whereas Logos comes up blank). 


Houseonarock:

With all due respect this mandate was given to believers who had only the Pentateuch and a few letters.  So easy to get caught up in technology while missing the importance of the Holy Spirit. Do not get me wrong.  Knowing the original language can be of help, but was the spirit expecting all of this.  How did smith widdlesworth survive. An uneducated Plumber?  In many respects he was a lot  further down the road.  I refuse to be influenced by the profit motive.

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:25 PM

There's still something wrong. Very seriously wrong. 
One day I will have to give an account for my words today. And so will Logos and everyone else. (Not for my words. For their actions, and their words). 
But at this point, there is something very seriously wrong here. 


Posts 934
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:59 PM

Batman:
But, over the past 6-7 years I see I have racked up over $2000 in a system that is so complicated I have lost any desire to use.

I do not know what titles or how many books you were able to obtain for that amount of money, but there are probably many on the forums who could say they easily spent more than that on their physical libraries. Depending on one's needs, it is possible to spend that amount on just a few high-end physical commentary sets. Yes, Logos resources purchased individually can be more expensive than buying their dead tree equivalents, but base packages often paint a very different picture. For example, it would cost me just a hair over $600 to upgrade to Gold 7, which would add to my library the Tyndale commentaries, the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, and many other resources. There is no way I could get everything I would gain from Gold 7 for anywhere near $600 in print, and even if I could, I still would not have all the extra tagging and features included in Gold 7. Regardless of whether I need the resources or whether I find them worth what Faithlife charges, I certainly cannot accuse Faithlife of being greedy when what they sell would be less expensive than buying the same resources in print.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 3:12 PM

Batman:
And no, Im not saying they should stop innovating. But, somewhere this becomes insane. That's all I'm saying. 

Or do you mean drives the user insane?

My perspective: Computerization of Bible Study will come to two distinct phases:

  1. Computerizing the resources and methods of the dead-tree format era (partway through this phase).
  2. True innovation of methods made possible only by computerization (not here yet)

What I have gained (and lost) thus far in phase 1:

  • decrease in physical activity of going to library, walking to and from bookshelves, lifting and setting down books
  • decrease in frustration over where is volume blank which I had a minute ago ...
  • increased speed in finding items within a volume whether or not the volume was well indexed
  • no change in the need to know the vocabulary of a particular discipline, religious tradition or author
  • decrease in use of short term memory to recall what from volume A I was looking up in volume B
  • major increase in what I can look up/search for within a volume (think of things like tagging of pronouns to referents)
  • decrease in paper consumption and its storage in file cabinets and file card boxes

But generally what I can do it a simple transference of tasks from paper to screen with no underlying paradigm shift. I suspect that the shift from manual to printed texts and the resultant decrease of reliance on memory was not dissimilar.

Where are we in this process? Well, the interactives are giving me what I used to go to Bible Handbook charts for. And indexing sections such as Ancient Literature, Catholic Topical Index, Systematic Theologies are beginning to provide what I went to the reference section of the library for ... although in a bit coarser units.  So I'd say we aren't really that far along.

Oh, yes, there are some nods towards the progress in visual presentation aids as used in public communication (i.e. Power Point type progress) but there is very little progress in visualization as a tool of rapid comparison and understanding (yes, morph rivers and narrative charts are inklings of possibilities).

But relatively simple features like visual drill down of cross-references, pattern recognition ... computer science is still so far ahead of Bible Study software ...

Batman:
When does it stop? It's never ending. 

I'd ask when does it take a breather ... hopefully not until we have a paradigm shift so that we are taking advantage of the new possibilities the media offers rather than simply moving paper habits to screen habits.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 4:14 PM

Logos seems to be wanting more and more $$$ each upgrade cycle.  They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.  Their competitors are much better at attracting people to their platform with free (public domain) resources or inexpensive packages.  That introduces them to the platform and eventually they buy more and more resources.  Logos is taking the opposite approach.  I bought Scholar and Bronze years ago and now they want to keep selling me more features at premium prices with few new resources.  I own one of the major competitor's packages and pay about $50 every few years and get all the features of the new version.  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 4:43 PM

Tony Thomas:
 They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.

Somehow, providing a 4 year high school program strikes me as getting the lower end of the market into Faithlife products. And the average "pew warmer" can easily never move beyond a starter package - with occasional purchase of individual resources for parish based faith formation programs. I don't understand why people feel pressured to upgrade or have this year's features or the most current pre-packaged library. That certainly isn't how I build my paper library.

In fact by giving me free updates of resources and software, Logos is saying I don't have to upgrade - ever.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3475
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 7:20 PM

Tony Thomas:
They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.

The lowest part of the market doesn't spend much, and most FL customers in the pre-subscription/membership era bought themselves one base package and never bought anything again. Bob has written and explained both of those things on the forums.

Right now, the particularly low end of the market can look to the very budget-friendly lower level Logos/Verbum Cloud offerings.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 7:30 PM

SineNomine:

Tony Thomas:
They have totally ignored the lower end of the market.

The lowest part of the market doesn't spend much, and most FL customers in the pre-subscription/membership era bought themselves one base package and never bought anything again. Bob has written and explained both of those things on the forums.

Right now, the particularly low end of the market can look to the very budget-friendly lower level Logos/Verbum Cloud offerings.

Well, I started with the John MacArthur CD set for $25 at Sam's Club back in the Libronix days.  When Logos 4 came out, I bought the lowest-end package (Bible Study Library).   My history says I have spent $2600+ with Logos.  And more in Libronix packages bought elsewhere.  So, I guess I am an anomaly.

As for Logos Cloud, it looks like it was an experiment that didn't pan out.  You can get much more from free apps.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 7:42 PM

Batman:

No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer. 

Wait, Faithlife is trying to make a profit so they can try to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit?

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