Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

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Posts 68
Diego Lara | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 7:45 PM

Andrew Zoll:

Batman:

No, you are definitely not alone. I'm pretty much done with Logos. I understand being in business to make money, but this is ridiculous, and I am wondering what Jesus would do if he were here physically, or if Peter would react similarly to how he spoke to Simon the sorcerer. 

Wait, Faithlife is trying to make a profit so they can try to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Hahaha I thought the same thing but you beat me to it. 

Posts 8
Greg Terry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 8:00 PM

What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"

Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.

I agree with many others that this is a bit much.  I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.

Posts 22
Shannon Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 8:04 PM

Greg Terry:

What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"

Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.

I agree with many others that this is a bit much.  I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.

Wait? Faithlife is robbing you?

In my case I did my research and willingly reached for my wallet totally of my own accord. I can see where you would have a negative attitude if they robbed you.

Posts 931
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 8:16 PM

Greg Terry:

What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"

Greg, why do you think that's changed? The Logos engine is expected to be available for free in February, just as it has been after the last several major upgrades.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:11 PM

Tony Thomas:

Personally, I think it is a mistake to only offer an annual option.  $90 is a big commitment for something that you don't get a chance to test out.  

Tony, if I am not mistaken, you can cancel within 30 days for a free refund. Try it out for 29 days and if you don't like it, cancel. That is the closest thing to a "trial" you will get I'm afraid.

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Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:12 PM

Dwayne Justice:

Tony Thomas:

Personally, I think it is a mistake to only offer an annual option.  $90 is a big commitment for something that you don't get a chance to test out.  

Tony, if I am not mistaken, you can cancel within 30 days for a free refund. Try it out for 29 days and if you don't like it, cancel. That is the closest thing to a "trial" you will get I'm afraid.

"free" refund?! LOL! I meant to say FULL refund. Sorry.

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:41 PM

Batman,

          What am i missing here? Was there a reply to your first post that is no longer viewable? I'm interested to see whatever "argument" you are referring to. 

Other than that, I would just like to throw my two cents in here (if it's even worth that). I think the value of Logos to each individual lies in how often and for what you use it for. I, for one, find it invaluable. I use it for school so the amount of research I can do in a VERY short amount of time makes Logos worth it to me. Is it overpriced? Most definitely! Do I pay the price anyway? yes. For two reasons: 1) I understand that what the Failthlife community does to tag the resources and do all of the research and development on top of still trying to make a profit, so I can almost understand the high prices (although I don't think they need to be quite so high). 2) I use Logos pretty much every day and know I would be lost without it when it comes to doing my homework. Also, I don't know what God's future plans are for me, but if I become a pastor or teacher or something close to those regards then Logos will have been a great past investment for future Kingdom work. On the integrity of Logos/FaithLife. Let us agree to disagree on that one. I believe Logos does have integrity. Marketing, communication, and information management are weak areas for the company, but I don't think it is a lack of integrity. I have never had any issues with them except for what I will talk about in a minute, but have always had great customer service from the company, especially from my sales rep, Todd.

My two issues with Logos, right now, are 1) the whole base package/library/full feature set lingo fiasco they have going on right now, and 2) Their constant diatribe about how Logos Now is super worth the money. Don't get me wrong, LN is great and has some awesome features (my favorite of which will be the webapp once they get it working as fully as the desktop version of Logos) that are worth the $100/year IF, and only IF you don't mind 1) not owning what you are paying for, and 2) the potential of losing access to Logos features. If you ever get into a financial situation where you can't swing $100 at a time (granted, you should budget for the things you need/want and be putting aside $8.5/mo so that you aren't burdened by the $100 all at once thing) or something else happens that makes you stop your membership, or if Faithlife ever went out of business, or any number of any other reasons; your membership ends and you are stuck nothing, or at the very least, if you previously owned a version of Logos you will have those set of features (e.g. if you own Logos 4, became a LN member, stopped being a member, you would revert back to Logos 4). Here's my issue with that. Say you are a member of LNf or 4 years. Assuming the price of LN doesn't go up (which it will probably increase every year) you will have spent $400 to "use" the program. The full feature set costs less than that for most people. As an example, the full feature set would cost me $112. So, 4 years into LN I have already paid triple what the full feature set would cost, but I would OWN the features instead of renting them. However, there are some features that are only available through LN which is the only reason I will keep LN but still buy Logos 7 full feature set so that I OWN the features just in case something happens and I am no longer a LN member.

Another issue with LN is that, again assuming the price doesn't go up, you pay your $100/yr for 4 years. You are now $400 in. FaithLife comes out with a newer version of Logos. Let's assume that in 4 years' time they will be on Logos 9 (just as an example). You want to buy Logos 9. However, you skipped Logos 7 and Logos 8 because you are a LN member. Now, Logos 9 is going to cost you a sacrifice to Molech plus your first three grandchildren and you left are plus your right leg.

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Posts 366
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:27 PM

Precisely. 
But watch out. The Logos Groupies will descend upon you. 
Btw, after those who do pay, they will probably have a free version of the Logos 7 engine for free. Now that I can't fault them for. They do need the revenue to provide the free. I get that. 
I just dont get the rest. As my friend says, "They're milking everyone" and she also says that it seems like the whole deal is to brag about how big everyone's library is. I think she's right there too. I have more books in my small tiny library than a normal person could EVER use. 1660 books is relatively small, isn't it? I wonder how much people REALLY use their library. I'll admit, mine is so big and so slow and so complicated, I've pretty much given up. I keep hoping for the best, but, I never see progress. There is such a thing as overload. And while it sounds wonderful, it's really just upgrade after upgrade after upgrade. and they're using the Bible to promote "us suckers". 

And to those who disagree, fine. But there's very little that will change my mind. This is just plain and simple, ridiculous. 

Greg Terry:

What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"

Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.

I agree with many others that this is a bit much.  I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:50 PM

Batman:
This is just plain and simple, ridiculous. 

It may be for you; for me it is still so far behind the promise of computer assisted text study ... let every person purchase what they personally need.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 68
Diego Lara | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:58 PM

The free version is simply  the engine it doesn't provide any of the tools that you get from purchasing a package or logos now.  So anyone who likes Logos is a logos groupie? Does that make you a Logos hater? No one is forcing anyone to buy anything,  you can keep what you have so what's the big deal? Not sure why anyone would get mad about a company who provides a product charging whatever they want to charge.  If you don't like the prices or options then go to another product,  since that is what makes competition great.  The only people who complain are liberals who think someone owes them something just for the fact that the  exist.  

Faithlife is producing a great product but it doesn't mean it's for everyone.  Yes they produce biblical tools but at the same time they are a software company and the idea of being a software company is to innovate and make money so that they can continue to innovated.  That is the reality of the world we live in and there isn't anything we can do about it.  Go look at the free bible study options and you will see the difference between free software and paid software.  And then tell me who is truly innovating. 

Batman:

Precisely. 
But watch out. The Logos Groupies will descend upon you. 
Btw, after those who do pay, they will probably have a free version of the Logos 7 engine for free. Now that I can't fault them for. They do need the revenue to provide the free. I get that. 
I just dont get the rest. As my friend says, "They're milking everyone" and she also says that it seems like the whole deal is to brag about how big everyone's library is. I think she's right there too. I have more books in my small tiny library than a normal person could EVER use. 1660 books is relatively small, isn't it? I wonder how much people REALLY use their library. I'll admit, mine is so big and so slow and so complicated, I've pretty much given up. I keep hoping for the best, but, I never see progress. There is such a thing as overload. And while it sounds wonderful, it's really just upgrade after upgrade after upgrade. and they're using the Bible to promote "us suckers". 

And to those who disagree, fine. But there's very little that will change my mind. This is just plain and simple, ridiculous. 

Greg Terry:

What happened to "We will always have the Logos engine available for free?"

Guess they can get around that by selling us "feature sets" instead o f the engine upgrade.

I agree with many others that this is a bit much.  I don't want to rent software and I don't want to be continually robbed in order to have their latest program version. I think many of those blindly buying the new version should consider if this will really draw them closer to Christ or not.

Posts 366
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:06 PM

Hello

First, I'm not sure what happened. But, my first response was to let the original poster (OP) know they were not alone. 
I went on a bit of a rant, for pretty much the reasons you described. 

As far as Logos value, I don't dispute that. I am, however, bothered by several things. Morris Procter and his company has stated that 90% of Logos users only take advantage of 10% of what Logos has to offer. 
At any establishment I am aware of, 10% is a huge failure! 
Now, to Logos/Faithlife's credit, they are beginning to offer more free in depth training videos. The 30 day course is a great example. It actually takes me longer, but, that's beside the point. 
The negative, however, is, if it's so complicated they have to sell courses for $450 (for both DVDs) there's a HUGE problem. And the fact that 90% of users use 10% of it's capabilities proves it. 

The argument everyone makes "You don't have to buy anything you don't want to" is a great big "No Duh!" to me. The point isn't whether we do or don't, it's that Logos is milking us for everything they can, and whether the groupies realize it or not, we're all being suckered. The point is not whether they are here to make money or not. They ARE a business and even as a Christian organization, they HAVE to make a profit to a) stay in business and b) as you point out indirectly, stay in business. I get all that. I just don't get having to upgrade four times in eight years! By "having to", I don't mean we are required to, I mean, Logos even upgrading that often. Most of what they are offering is public domain stuff (free to them) which costs them to transfer it to digital form. And, if everyone (Logos, the groupies and everyone) were honest, they'd admit there was no REAL purpose in going from 4 to 6. 
Sure, I might be upset that I was told a more deceptive statement regarding future editions when I purchased L-3. Upon asking specifically about Logos 4, I was told there was no plans and other statements to that sort. Of course a few months later, here comes the next version, and shortly thereafter here comes 5, and 6 and now 7. So right off the bat, I've got some huge gripes against Logos. I went with L4, but didnt like it, and got the refund. Then, here comes L-5 and L-3 support is ending. So, in comes L-5. I THINK i get everything. Oh No! I need to pay for something from L-4 to get all L-5 has to offer. But, is it over? No. I have to then buy a crossgrade? And some other nonsense? So, then L-6 comes out in what seems like a few days. There was what I thought was a great deal, but shame on me for falling for the marketing gibberish. What turns out to be a great deal is "dynamic pricing" except, they cleverly call it 65% off. So, this great big deal is nothing more than a deduction for what I already purchased. NOT the 65% off sale it looked like. 
So let's say I skip 7, 8, 9 all the way through L-20 which by my calculations should be out in 3 years (ok, that's bad) I'll have to pay for ALL the missed upgrades without any of the resources? Oh no! Not in my world. 

So somewhere in all that you will see some of what I said that may be missing, and other stuff I have not said. But, in the end, there is something seriously wrong with this company, and regardless what anyone says, it's how I feel.
Is there good? Absolutely! Does Bob do what he can to try to make things right? I think he does. And, in all honesty, I would NOT want to be in his position. For if he does a great job and does it with integrity and his main goal is honorable and God-pleasing, there will ALWAYS be people who will complain and make his life miserable. Which, believe it or not, is not my goal. Granted, I may be succeeding at it more than anything, it is not my intent or goal. And if he does have bad intentions or to be more respectful, let's say, less than altruistic intentions, and it is purely monetary (above and beyond making a profit) he has more than those of us who are griping to deal with. In such a manner, he receives double judgement. A position I do NOT envy. 
I do see value in this software (otherwise I wouldn't keep pumping more and more money into it, HOPING for the best) but, I do see some very wrong things happening. And that is what I am bothered by. 

I thank you for your response. It was a very good one. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:10 PM

Batman:
Morris Procter and his company has stated that 90% of Logos users only take advantage of 10% of what Logos has to offer. 
At any establishment I am aware of, 10% is a huge failure! 

Hmmmm ... I know I use less than 10% of MsOffice capabilities ... but I am dependent on that 10% and can list functions I'd like to be able to do but can't. I consider that to be a reflection of my needs not of Microsoft's success.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 366
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:14 PM

I probably am a "Logos hater"; or very close to it. 
As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good. 

As far as everything else you say, I have already responded to it, and there's no point in going further. You're a groupie and I am probably a hater. And we both have good reasons for why we stand where we do. 

Posts 1698
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:16 PM

Batman:
When does it stop? It's never ending. 

You're talking about operating system upgrades, right? Or server patches? Or mobile phones?

Smile

Yes, it's never ending. Welcome to the technology treadmill.

It keeps changing -- for you and for us. We are going to try to keep earning more of your money. (Earning. Earning.) Because even if you never buy anything else, you're going to expect your data to sync, your purchases to easily migrate to your new machine, your app to run on the next version of Windows or OS X or your phone, your cloud-backed databases to stay available, your information not to be deleted or stolen because we failed to maintain or patch a server, or upgrade its hard drives, etc. And that costs a (surprising) amount of money to maintain -- just to keep servicing a one-time purchase.

That's why everything is moving to subscriptions. It's not just us -- it is the whole tech world.

And no, I don't think it's sustainable. People can only take so many subscriptions. So, while we're presently de-bundling the world so that you can subscribe to more and more stand-alone services each week, I think we're just running in a circle which will lead back to bundling. 

(People were angry about $100/month cable bills, and wanted un-bundled TV. We're kind-of getting it: Netflix, Hulu, HBO, Showtime, Dove, PureFlix, etc. are all separately subscribable. But add these up, and a few more to come, and you'll be back a $100/month for entertainment -- right where you started. So people like Amazon will bundle your newspaper / magazines / music / video / free shipping / free bagels / etc. all together, to try to win a bigger fee from you for a value bundle. And they'll hope that the deal will attract enough volume to make it work. And... we're back.)

Our secret plan for world domination (shouldn't all gospel-focused organizations be for world domination?) is to be one of those bigger bundlers: delivering huge value at a reasonable price so we can win massive market share and make it all pencil out.

Logos Now is a great deal, and our plan is to keep making it a better and better deal. At around $100/year it's less than most Logos users spend with us each year on average (we've got decades of data to analyze) and we deliver more for that value than we ever did before.

I know we have "I like to own"ers among us, and we plan to continue to support you. :-)  But we are going to try to continue and earn upgrades and book sales from you, because that's really how we subsidize continuing to support you. (There are other software companies resisting the move to subscription sales, but they're solving this 'tech support treadmill' costs problem with maintenance fees. It's not all unusual for me to see a product offered to us for a one-time sale -- with a 25-50% of initial sale annual maintenance fee. Yes, we can choose to not renew the maintenance, but then we don't get upgrades, bug fixes, or any online service. So maybe that's a plan? Though I'm pretty sure the maintenance fee would be, um, just about the same price as Logos Now.... Big Smile )

Some days I miss the 'buy it, own it, don't call us, we won't call you' days of anonymously buying a piece of software in a retail store. But then I remember being annoyed by a bug or missing feature, and needing to purchase an annual upgrade to get an update. And I remember the hassle of moving to a new computer. And how I could only access my data on the one machine I'd installed the software on, which sometimes was at work when I was at home, or vice versa. I resisted subscriptions myself for a while... but now I'm coming to really appreciate the value.

I hope you will too, and I can promise we'll do our best to make sure that every year it's a better deal than the year before.

-- Bob

Side Story:

This very night I went to re-purchase an album I'd bought on CD back in college. I have it, I own it, and I have dutifully (myself!) migrated it through several tech platforms over 20 years, ending up with an MP3 that I'm pretty sure is on the SD card I put into the car stereo two years ago when I bought it, but I wanted to call it up on my phone, so I almost splurged and re-bought the track via my iPhone.

But then I checked and it was on a streaming music service I subscribe to, and I called it up in seconds without needing to navigate that SD card with the car's awkward interface...

A win for the subscription product and the consumer!

But an interesting (and not financially good) story about the music industry... which used to get 6-10 CD sales from me each year at $15.95 each (I'm not that big a music guy), and which now doesn't even get $10/month, because my streaming music service is Amazon Prime, which I got primarily for free shipping but which bundles in a bunch of music, video, etc... all for around $99/year. The music can't be earning much.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:18 PM

Batman:
You're a groupie and I am probably a hater.

My interest is more in the factual basis and the precision of the logic than whether you love/hate Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1698
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:29 PM

Batman:
As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good

I use less than 10% of what Microsoft Outlook does, and I use it all day every day.

When I open Adobe InDesign I use less than 5%.

I use less than 2% of Excel. Or maybe less than 1%.

It's possible that I do use 50% of Instagram's power, but I'm not sure. But I _think_ there's just those five buttons, and I've clicked them all at least once.

I hear a lot of users say they use less than 10% of Logos. Some say it almost apologetically, like they've let themselves, or their church, or even me(!) down. Some say it resentfully, like they were somehow cheated of 90% of their investment.

But it's not unusual or anything to feel bad about: Logos is a big, toolbox full of things you use every day (hammers and screwdrivers) as well as some exotic tools you use rarely but which are the perfect thing when you need them (glass cutter, reciprocating saw, shingle froe, etc.).

A big toolbox isn't a waste if you don't use every tool in it. What's a waste (of time or energy) is trying to use a hammer and screwdriver for every job, even if they're a lot cheaper than the big toolbox.

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:31 PM

Bob Pritchett:

[I know we have "I like to own"ers among us, and we plan to continue to support you. :-)  But we are going to try to continue and earn upgrades and book sales from you, because that's really how we subsidize continuing to support you. (There are other software companies resisting the move to subscription sales, but they're solving this 'tech support treadmill' costs problem with maintenance fees. It's not all unusual for me to see a product offered to us for a one-time sale -- with a 25-50% of initial sale annual maintenance fee. Yes, we can choose to not renew the maintenance, but then we don't get upgrades, bug fixes, or any online service. So maybe that's a plan? Though I'm pretty sure the maintenance fee would be, um, just about the same price as Logos Now.... Big Smile )

Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions? 

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Sarel Slabbert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:41 PM

Andrew Zoll:

Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions? 

I would also like to know. I keep on hammering the idea that if Logos would allow us to keep "datasets and features" after a certain period of subscription, I would jump at the chance. I have made multiple comments regarding this, and even send Bob an email, but so far not a single person responded to this question or referred me to a previous discussion. Will Logos really "lose" money if they allow me to keep features after two years of subscription?

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:54 PM

^^^^^What those two people said! This is my main concern with LN.

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Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 12:07 AM

i upgraded- think i got 2 whole features for 200.00- niether of which will i ever use.

good grief!!

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