Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

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Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:22 AM

GregW:

I don't really want to join this conversation, as I'm finding it rather tiresome, but there are a couple of points worth making:

  • One thing nobody ever seems to mention is that there have been at least three occasions, and I think more, in the past year, when LN subscribers have also been given a $10 voucher, which actually significantly reduces the overall cost. That doesn't mean they will continue to do so, but it indicates that Faithlife is very aware of the amount of value members are getting out of the subscription. 
  • The term "beta testing" is one that non-LN subscribers like to use as a way of insulting the product: it is a slanderous term that really should not be bandied about here. The quality of the software that has come out over the past year has, in general, significantly improved with the six-week development cycle. LN users are certainly not beta-testers, and I am increasingly finding it galling to hear people who know little about LN referring to it as such. Most of the new features that have come out have been more robust, better-documented, and better explained than we saw in the past. Granted, there are some issues, but far fewer than there ever used to be. 
  • When I moved from L3 to L4 I was concerned about the Logos business model: I could not see how the syncing, mobile app upgrades, and storage of all my notes could be funded from one-off purchases. That's before considering the cost of constant development to keep up to date with Apple, Microsoft and Android software updates, server OS and security upgrades, etc. I think Logos/Faithlife is acting wisely and responsibly in seeking to protect its future by finding ways of generating recurring revenues from its users. The world is changing, and I have 3-4 disks in the back of my cupboard from previous Bible software packages that went out of business or ceased to be supported. I see the annual LN fee as a protection of my investment, but I get full value out of it on top of that as well. Yes, I'll lose some features if I cease to subscribe. I am happy to take that risk. There's more to life than fretting about my Logos features. 

Hear! Hear! 

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Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:32 AM

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew Zoll:

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Andrew, how did you do this? Thanks.

1. Click edit at the top of your screen:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

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Posts 3476
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:34 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Batman:
As I quoted in a previous response, 90% of Logos users utilize 10% of what Logos has to offer. That's about as poor a grade a company can get. And, that comes from Morris Proctor, "official Logos trainer". Or, maybe it came from Logos itself. Either way, it's not good

I use less than 10% of what Microsoft Outlook does, and I use it all day every day.

...

I hear a lot of users say they use less than 10% of Logos. Some say it almost apologetically, like they've let themselves, or their church, or even me(!) down. Some say it resentfully, like they were somehow cheated of 90% of their investment.

But it's not unusual or anything to feel bad about: Logos is a big, toolbox full of things you use every day (hammers and screwdrivers) as well as some exotic tools you use rarely but which are the perfect thing when you need them (glass cutter, reciprocating saw, shingle froe, etc.).

A big toolbox isn't a waste if you don't use every tool in it. What's a waste (of time or energy) is trying to use a hammer and screwdriver for every job, even if they're a lot cheaper than the big toolbox.

Bob, here's how I look at it:

Let's say I use 10% of what Verbum 7 can do. There are a few more things that I intend to start using or that I would like to explore. Let's say that's another 5%. Now, let's suppose that, since there are some non-complex features in Verbum that I don't use that lots of other people do, that those account for another 5% of what Verbum can do. Now, let's suppose that Verbum could only do that 20% of what it actually can do. I would then be using or interested in fully 75% of what Verbum can do, the product would be distinctly inferior to what it is now, and I'd probably be about as happy paying for it as I am now... because I buy based on what I will/intend to use, not based on what something can do that I won't use it to do. Do I feel bad about this? Is this a complaint that Verbum can do tonnes of stuff I don't need or want to do? Of course not! Why would I ever complain about a product I get for a subjectively good price that can do more than what I need it to do? That would be outrageously silly. (Alas, my waffle-maker can also do grilled cheese sandwiches! My laptop could dual boot to Linux! My bookmark doubles as a ruler! My DVD player can also play VHS! My watch has a built-in alarm clock! Horror of horrors! Stick out tongue)

At the end of the day, I'm happy buying and using what I'm using, and you're happy selling me what I'm buying; all's well.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:35 AM

SineNomine:

Tony Thomas:
By contrast, Faithlife/Logos wants $90-100 a year.  That is more than I pay for Evernote and Pandora combined!  What value will I receive from such a subscription?  A whole bunch of new features/datasets that I am not sure that I can even benefit from since some/many of them are library-dependent.  The Logos Now website remains a work in progress.  Essentially beta quality.  That is something that I am willing to pay for.  But not $7-8 a month.  For a bit more, you can buy Microsoft Office 365!   That suite has way more functionality for most people that the features/datasets and the semi-functional website offered by Faithlife/Logos

There are two other ways to get your money's worth out of Logos/Verbum Now (and I'm going to bold them because in a lot of threads people seem to miss/forget about them; it's not me 'yelling' at you or whatever Smile).

1. Logos/Verbum Now can pay for itself by getting you better discounts on L/V7 Libraries and Feature Sets. It's pretty easy right now for buying a year of Now to save you more money that it will cost on a single Library purchase. And even if it only saves you $20-50, that's brought Now's cost down to or close to what you said you'd be happy paying.

2. Logos/Verbum Now can pay for itself by getting you access to special discounts on other FL products. One 20% discount on a $600 commentary set purchased any time in the next year would more than cover Now. Getting Now down to $3.99/mth (~$48/yr instead of $89, so a $41 discount) really isn't hard for those of us who intend to grow our libraries this year (at least if the right sales come up).

As I am not planning to buy any large sets in the near future, this is not of interest to me.  I would rather see lower-cost subscription options than discounts.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:39 AM

Andrew Zoll:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

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Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:44 AM

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew Zoll:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

No problem. It's going to depend what kind of computer you have. Since I have a Mac, they're build in emoji, and can generally be accessed by pressing ⌘+⌃+Space (Command, Control, and the Space Bar).

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Posts 3476
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:05 AM

Tony Thomas:
As I am not planning to buy any large sets in the near future, this is not of interest to me.  I would rather see lower-cost subscription options than discounts.

That's quite fair. Smile

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:16 AM

Andrew Zoll:

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew Zoll:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

No problem. It's going to depend what kind of computer you have. Since I have a Mac, they're build in emoji, and can generally be accessed by pressing ⌘+⌃+Space (Command, Control, and the Space Bar).

cool! Thanks!

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Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:39 AM

Keeping it open may be a viable option. I'll try that. But, i do find it annoying I just had Logos opened last night--rather late, I might add, and had an update and that's after an update earlier yesterday, and a bigger one the day before. (Again, I know i can direct the software to update manually. But, again, I think it would be beneficial to do the "Patch Tuesday" thing. And then, if people would rather update sooner, they can. Like how security software works. 
But, put it together like this:
Antivirus/security updates.
Windows updates.
Printer updates.
Logos updates. 
When do these updates take place? With exception of Logos (because I don't need Logos for my job) these all take place when I am in a hurry to print something out for work! So, then going to Logos, and dealing with MORE "important" updates, just makes me want to go and live with the Quakers or Amish or something. 
No, I'm not technologically illiterate, a technophobe. I'm just getting irritated by the "bigger, better, faster" computers taking longer and longer. And yes, I see Logos as part of the problem, not really a solution. 

Dwayne Justice:

Batman,

     I don't know what to tell you, man. First of all, Logos is always open on my computer (maybe you could consider that?) so I wouldn't have that issue, even if it was an issue. Second, when I do close it, or perform my weekly restart of my computer, when I open it back up it only takes about 5 seconds. If that is too long for you to wait, then I got nothing...If I do find that Logos is indexing at the time I am trying to accomplish a search, I simply click the pause button. I honestly do not know why yours is so slow if you maintain that it is not your computer. Maybe you should contact your computer and/or OS software manufacturers to see if it has something to do with your hardware or software not working right with Logos. All I know is that I have zero speed or functionality (searching capability) problems with my Logos on any of my devices (Macbook Pro, iMac, iPad, iPhone). It works great no matter which device I am trying to use Logos on.

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:51 AM

Batman:

Keeping it open may be a viable option. I'll try that. But, i do find it annoying I just had Logos opened last night--rather late, I might add, and had an update and that's after an update earlier yesterday, and a bigger one the day before. (Again, I know i can direct the software to update manually. But, again, I think it would be beneficial to do the "Patch Tuesday" thing. And then, if people would rather update sooner, they can. Like how security software works. 

Hey Batman,

Another option you may consider (especially if you are going to leave Logos open all the time) might be setting Logos to get updates at a time at which you know you will not be on the computer. If you go into Tools -> Program Settings,  under the "Internet section (see attached images), you can tell Logos to only update between 1:00 AM and 4:00 AM (an hour at which no human should be awake- though if you're Batman, you might adjust the time to suit your nocturnal habits... but I digress). 

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⌨Logos 7 Extended Feature Set⌨
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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:56 AM

Andrew Zoll:

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew Zoll:

2. Type whatever you want to be in your signature:

Thanks, Andrew. Where did you get the laptop, package, and world logos from? I looked in the smiley face options and none of those were in there. Thanks.

No problem. It's going to depend what kind of computer you have. Since I have a Mac, they're build in emoji, and can generally be accessed by pressing ⌘+⌃+Space (Command, Control, and the Space Bar).

Let's see if I did this right. Testing 1, 2. Testing. Testing, 1,2,3.

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:57 AM

Nope! No workie.

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Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:58 AM

Dwayne Justice:

Let's see if I did this right. Testing 1, 2. Testing. Testing, 1,2,3.

Did you remember to click save? Also, I think the first time I did it, it took like 5 minutes to show up.

💻MacBook Pro (15-inch 2018) | 2.9 GHz i9 6 core | 32GB RAM | Radeon Pro Vega 20 4 GB Graphics | 1TB SSD💻
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⌨Logos 7 Extended Feature Set⌨
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Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:10 AM

Thanks. 
This is precisely the problem. There are a lot of people who I speak for. Most get beat down, for speaking up. I don't care. There are things that need to be said, and generally, the only way they get addressed is by speaking up. 
The one good thing about Logos is Bob does come out and tries to explain things. Things settle down, until they rise up again. And when they do, I step up again. 
I do tire of the fanboys spewing out how great a deal this is, and that Logos is in business to make money. In the corporate world, that would all be true. But, it's not. No business should be run out of stupidity, resulting in certain failure. 
I am thinking that Logos Now may be the best overall solution to much of the problem. If Logos slows down the bi-annual upgrades to something closer to a bi-decadial (like that one? lol) platform, and goes to a subscription based system, it may relieve a lot of the tension. 
Of course, there will probably never be a complete solution, as there will always be those who think the software should be completely free. But, let's put things in perspective:
Let's say we upgrade every time a new number comes out. Since my coming in, at the end of L-3 I paid $400. A discount of $200 for what I think was Gold. Whatever the $600 package was. 
Then 4 came out, and the lowest "full package" I think that was $200ish. 
Then 5 which with all the cross-grades, side-grades, and other stuff I needed to get to the data-sets that cost another $300-400. 
Now, here comes 6 and that was another 300-400. 
Now we're talking 7 and suddenly another $300. Almost $100 for Bronze, and then $200 for the "full feature" set, whatever that is. 
That works out to be $1200-1400 whereas a subscription works out to be $700-800. Still not cheap, per se, but, I can see $100 to have access to everything. And what would be great is if Logos allowed those who couldn't fork out $100 at once to pay monthly. $7-10 a month does not sound horrible. Or as bad. 
Of course, if one can't or does not use the program, it's not a value. But, on the flip-side, if one invests $7-10 and discovers they are bogged down and not getting anywhere, they're out $10. Not $400-several grand. 

Anyway, thanks. Hope my ranting helps you and others who feel the same. I do believe these are very legitimate gripes. Even if the groupies and fanboys dont. 

JoshInRI:

(In response to every post Batman has made in here....)

At last someone who says what I could not....you rock.  God bless this mess...and you too.

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:14 AM

Thank you Andrew, but, yes, as stated, I am aware of that. But, others who do find it annoying may not. 

And, yes, I have nocturnal habits. But, working three jobs, and making nothing, those habits have shrunk. Even Batman needs time to recover. 

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:17 AM

Andrew Zoll:

Batman:

Keeping it open may be a viable option. I'll try that. But, i do find it annoying I just had Logos opened last night--rather late, I might add, and had an update and that's after an update earlier yesterday, and a bigger one the day before. (Again, I know i can direct the software to update manually. But, again, I think it would be beneficial to do the "Patch Tuesday" thing. And then, if people would rather update sooner, they can. Like how security software works. 

Hey Batman,

Another option you may consider (especially if you are going to leave Logos open all the time) might be setting Logos to get updates at a time at which you know you will not be on the computer. If you go into Tools -> Program Settings,  under the "Internet section (see attached images), you can tell Logos to only update between 1:00 AM and 4:00 AM (an hour at which no human should be awake- though if you're Batman, you might adjust the time to suit your nocturnal habits... but I digress). 

You beat me to it, Andrew. I was going to suggest the same thing.Big SmileYes

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Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:22 AM

Dwayne Justice:

You beat me to it, Andrew. I was going to suggest the same thing.Big SmileYes



I try to be pretty quick- I don't want my energy annotating screenshots to go to waste! Stick out tongue

Dwayne Justice:

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💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻

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Nice! Looks good!

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Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:26 AM

That came from the Logos videos. Maybe you have forgotten the video "Three years in the making". That puts it back to 2009. 

Based on that, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind Logos is in fact working on Logos 8 already. MAYBE with Logos Now, 8 will be delayed. Maybe scrapped altogether. But, if you recall you know in fact it simply is very true. 

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Batman:
Knowing that L5 or 6 was being worked on before 4 was even out is beyond ridiculous to me. It makes me feel as if right now you are working on Logos 20 (yes, I am exaggerating; so maybe 10 or 11).

I'm not sure where you got this information, but it's simply not true.

Logos 4 was released on November 2, 2009.

The first line of code for Logos 5 was committed on June 13, 2012. (Obviously, some planning may have occurred before that, but it wasn't in development before Logos 4 shipped.)

Batman:
But a few months later, here  comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10.

We are not. We are currently working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and discussing what will be in those releases for Logos Now subscribers.

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:29 AM

Batman:

And what would be great is if Logos allowed those who couldn't fork out $100 at once to pay monthly. $7-10 a month does not sound horrible. Or as bad. 

That would be a good option for some, Batman. I would have two caveats to that, though. 1st: if Logos (or any company) set it up the way any smart business would, the month-by-monthers would end up paying more than the yearly subscribers. Let's say Logos buys your idea and splits it down the middle and charges $8.50/mo. That would end up being $102/yr. Not a drastic amount more, but still more. 2nd: it would be a better use of your money to simply budget aside $8.50/mo and not touch it until the yearly bill came due. If you put it somewhere that earns even the tiniest bit of interest like a .01% savings account or something, you even come out on top a little. Pay your $99.99 from the money you have been saving for a year and then go buy yourself a batburger with the $2 difference from the monthly vs yearly fees and your .01% interest you earned over the year. Heck! you might be able to get two batburgers. I don't know how much batburgers run these days. Or perhaps a batburger with a side of robinfries?

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:34 AM

Andrew Zoll:

I try to be pretty quick- I don't want my energy annotating screenshots to go to waste! Stick out tongue

Yeah! That ⌘⇧4 is a beast!

Andrew Zoll:

Nice! Looks good!

Thanks! It took me a while to figure out that it was the 256 character limit. I thought I saved, but it was an error cuz I went over the 256. I gotterdun dough. Thanks for the help.

🖥 21.5" iMac; 2.7GHZ; 1TB HD🖥

💻 15" Macbook Pro Retina; 2.5GHZ i7; 16 GB; 500GB FSD💻

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🌐Logos Now🌐

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