Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

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Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:02 PM

Apparently that is not true either. 

  • Logos 8 early release features
    Don’t wait for the next major Logos release—start using Logos 8 features in your Bible study today. And when we release Logos 8, you’ll be automatically updated.

I do tend to exaggerate. However, in this case I was not. While I did omit version 8, clearly you guys ARE in fact working beyond just 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3 and what is more clear to me is that Logos HAS been working on L-8; and this reiterates my certainty that Logos probably is working on 9 and maybe even 10.

While you may have thought you were helping the cause, you failed to acknowledge Logos IS and HAS been working on 8. That leaves Logos with a bad taste on the credibility issue-- even if that was not your intent, Sorry, but, those are the things that just add fuel to this fire for me. 

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Batman:
But a few months later, here  comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10.

We are not. We are currently working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and discussing what will be in those releases for Logos Now subscribers.

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:03 PM

good points.
Can you use your "renters version and tools " offline?

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:07 PM

Batman:

Apparently that is not true either. 

  • Logos 8 early release features
    Don’t wait for the next major Logos release—start using Logos 8 features in your Bible study today. And when we release Logos 8, you’ll be automatically updated.

What Bradley states below is correct with what you quoted. In essence 7.1 and beyond all are working toward 8.

Batman:

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Batman:
But a few months later, here  comes L7, and as stated above, I am pretty certain you are already working on 9 or possibly 10.

We are not. We are currently working on 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and discussing what will be in those releases for Logos Now subscribers.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:11 PM

To clarify/expand on what Bruce said, some of the features available only to Now subscribers in Logos 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, etc. will be in Feature Sets (or their equivalent) for purchase in Logos 8. In this way, it is true both that Bradley et al. are working on Logos 7.1, etc., and not on L9 and L10, and that Logos Now users will get early access to L8 features. Exactly the same thing happened with Logos Now and L7.

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Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:35 PM

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 5:51 PM

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Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 6:19 PM

Shannon Martin:

Some of the comments here really seam to be from some alternate universe.

Someone compared the price of Logos to Evernote. Evernote is a simple note taking app. The two are not even remotely comparable when it comes to development cost. Also, apps like Evernote, Pandora etc. appeal to huge segments of people. Logos will always have a relatively small user base.

Evernote is more than a "simple note taking app".  It is a pretty complex database that is supported on multiple platforms just like Logos (Windows, Mac, Android, iOS).  It received continuous upgrades on all platforms and there is I/O and storage going on 24/7 all over the world.  While it reportedly has something like 100,000,000+ registered users, I believe that only a small percentage (probably less than 2%) are paying users.  

In the case of Logos, the reason resources cost so much is to help support application development and overhead and generate a profit.

Of course they have to pay for ongoing server and storage costs because of the way they designed their application and its constant reliance on the Internet (though you can also use it offline and lose some features).  Most of their competitors don't have this problem because the resources download to your computer and the program operates offline.  So, the subscription model is almost inevitable for Logos if you depend on its online functionality (and most users do).  It is just a matter of what you are willing to pay.  

As I said previously, I would prefer that Logos do away with its "always free engine" model and charge a reasonable fee of $40-60 for major upgrades (with a decent list  features) that is paid by all users.  That would allow all users to get more features for less money because the development/support costs would be spread across a much larger percentage of the user base.

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Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 6:27 PM

Bob Pritchett:

We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).

I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

As I have said elsewhere, the solution is to do away with the "always free upgrades" policy and perhaps limit those who don't want to pay to offline use only.  Charge $40-60 every two years for major upgrades and create different subscription levels with monthly options at a higher price.  That solves the "forever costs" problem and would simplify things dramatically.

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Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 6:31 PM

Tony Thomas:

Bob Pritchett:

We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).

I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

As I have said elsewhere, the solution is to do away with the "always free upgrades" policy and perhaps limit those who don't want to pay to offline use only.  Charge $40-60 every two years for major upgrades and create different subscription levels with monthly options at a higher price.  That solves the "forever costs" problem and would simplify things dramatically.

If you don't provide a clear upgrade path for the core product, then you need to look at your support requirements for older versions. You can no longer simply say, "Upgrade free to the latest version and you will get the bug fix." You introduce problematic support issues and questions on customer abandonment at the end of version life cycles. 

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 6:40 PM

Stephen Terlizzi:

If you don't provide a clear upgrade path for the core product, then you need to look at your support requirements for older versions. You can no longer simply say, "Upgrade free to the latest version and you will get the bug fix." You introduce problematic support issues and questions on customer abandonment at the end of version life cycles. 

While that is true, older versions cannot be supported indefinitely.  And, it isn't practical to offer someone who bought an application back in Y2K full program updates, support and server access for 16 years without receiving any revenue.

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www.zoeproject.com

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:27 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Andrew Zoll:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions? 

We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).

I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

Bob,

     I'm just a blue-collar military grunt with no marketing or business background. However, I do have a tiny sliver of uncommon common sense. It would seem to me, that you could, and should, have the best of both worlds here. When those of us suggest a "rent to own" model we (well, let me use "I" here because I don't know if I can speak for everyone) mean that we would still keep paying the monthly fee (preferably at a reduced rate once the "offline features" are "paid for") but we would also own the offline features after we have paid (let's make it fair and have a flat rate for everyone and forget dynamic pricing for this one thing) $200 or $300. In essence you would continue to get your monthly "income" from LN users, but you would also have MORE LN users because you have just solved the biggest problem that is keeping the majority of Logos users from subscribing to LN. But, what do I know? I'm just a MSgt in the USAF. By the way...I love Logos and am an avid user. Thank you for continuing to improve the product! I don't care what anyone says, I'm willing to pay for more and better features each year. Keep doing you, brah!

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 8:33 PM

Andrew Zoll:

Bob Pritchett:

Andrew Zoll:
Bob, I appreciate all you do in this regard. One of the pain points I keep hearing (and I'm sure you do too) is the issue of "IF I stop Logos Now, I'll revert to Logos 4 or 5 or 6 (based on when I started)." Are there future plans to mitigate those concerns by introducing something like a rent-to-own aspect of Logos Now's non-server-based functions? 

We'll keep discussing this... one of the problems is that much of what's in Logos Now (and even more of what's coming) requires server access / huge data storage. If we move to a 'rent to own' model, that doesn't solve our maintenance / support / server costs problem. In fact, it's worse in many ways: instead of Option A (I get your money now) vs Option B (I get your money slowly over time, but it keeps coming in sync with my expenses) that creates a terrible Option C (I get your money slowly, then it stops, but my expenses continue).

I'm sure there's a middle ground where the math works, based on stats of average revenue, lifetime of customer use of servers, etc. Or we could only generate 'ownership' of the offline features... but it's hard to guess and dangerous to guess wrong -- and even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

I can respect that- and I can see a large contingent of people who have this same pain point being satisfied by a rent-to-own nature of offline-only features. Maybe this wouldn't satisfy everyone, but it would be a move of undeniable logic [i.e. these tools you've paid for for two years; therefore, you now own them because the costs of maintaining them are essentially (though probably not exactly) zero. These other tools however run on our servers, and therefore to maintain access, you must pay monthly/annually to help with server upkeep, etc.]. It would be a move that is hard to argue with after a period of two years (I think two years is an acceptable amount of time- you'll have to help me understand if the math works out).

Personally, I get so much benefit from Logos Now, that I don't see myself ever cancelling; however, this is one of those mind-gnawing concerns that won't go away. I am invested in the profitability of your company. You've provided excellent tools that keep getting better over time and I'm happy to pay my fair share. And I want to see you thrive for another 25 years. 

With regard for forever costs of support, etc., perhaps it is something that needs to be sold as a service, rather than packaged in with everything else (just like I don't mind paying Apple $3.99/mo. for the privilege of being able to store/sync 200 GB of data on their servers). I personally don't think it's terribly fair for a company to be expected to give something for free for life (but I'm a strict capitalist). So maybe have a feature with sync for $3/mo., Logos Now for $8/mo., and Logos Now w/ Sync for $10/mo.? Is that sustainable? You'll have to run the numbers, but again I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way) have every interest in seeing you guys succeed. Surely there's a way to communicate this sort of important-to-keep-in-mind stuff to a broad swath of customers...

Anyway, thank you for replying! I've been impressed with all the talent that you have surrounded yourself with and with whom I have interacted. Your people make a great company, especially Wyatt Shedd-Stewart, Phil Gons, and Mark Ward (just a few who've been indispensable to my relationship with FL). 

Andrew,

       I'm telling you, man. You gotta stop stealing my thunder, bro! Quit thinking like me and posting the same stuff as me before I get a chance to post it. I have a gun. OK, not really, but anyway....Beer

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Posts 47
Bob Price | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:10 PM

I think it actually is sustainable.  In my case, I would have to pay $300 right now to upgrade to the full feature set.  I could do that, and Faithlife would get $300 now, and nothing for a while.  If I spend that much on an upgrade every 3 years, then a Logos Now subscription is basically equivalent.  But, that assumes that my cost of upgrading remains constant, which it may not, and could even go down due to the fact that I would be doing a big upgrade now, followed by smaller ones in future years.  

The subscription model, on the other hand, ensures a steady flow of $100 each year.  So, over the course of 10 years, I would spend $1,000, which is likely more than I would spend over that same period just to upgrade my feature set.  Keep in mind that the subscription doesn't even address my library, which I can't rent, so I'd still have to buy those books.

A third scenario is where I rent for a few years and then decide to buy.  In that case, I would essentially have rented for a while, then paid full price to own the features.  Yes, I know it wouldn't be full price, due to the discounts, but depending on how many years I've rented, that may not actually make a difference.  

So, in the long run, I think Logos Now is a winner for Faithlife.  It levels out their revenue stream, and helps keep more people contributing to that revenue.  As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365.  For $99 per year, you get 5 licenses for the full office suite, as well as 1 TB of online storage for each of the 5, totalling 5 TB of storage!  That's a fantastic deal, and the Office suite has far more functionality than does the Logos software.  That's not meant to say that Office is better, I'm merely pointing out that Microsoft's deal isn't for a single-function program like Evernote, it's for a very full-featured and  complex piece of software.

Anyway, I hope that LN works out well both for Faithlife and for us.  :-)

Posts 47
Bob Price | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:17 PM

What I've done is to set "Automatically download updates" to "No".  It still shows me when an update is available, but I can choose to accept it when it's a good time for me.  I usually wait until the update size is substantial, such as over 50 MB, or something like that.  That way, I'm not bothered by some tiny little update that triggers a re-indexing that slows my machine down.  I've been very happy with this approach.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 9:55 PM

Bob Price:
As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365.

I can assure you we'll be able to reduce our monthly price if we can get the same number of subscriber's as Office 365. :-)  There's just a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg gamble about reducing the price first... will those millions show up? It's possible our market is a bit smaller...

Posts 326
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:04 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Bob, 

I received what I believe to be a generic email (previously) and for kicks and giggles, I decided to call the sales rep. because since I had just recently upgraded I should call and see what discounts were available based on purchase history. 
I am extremely pleased to say that Logos did do a great thing. It is new with software companies, and I am glad to see Logos following suit. I received what I will call a drastic discount, and chose what I feel was best for me, and a deal I could not pass up. While the past can never be changed, in my opinion, and my opinion has generated A LOT of emotion the past day or so) had this policy been in effect in 2009, I may never have come to this amount of aggravation with Logos. Perhaps it was in place, and it fell through the cracks. However, with the Logos Now concept, thanks to whoever it was who made the case for it, I am pleased to say that I see that you and Logos are in fact trying to run the company in a manner that is pleasing to God, and are not just about money-- as it does quite often appear. 

I've seen several who are happy with Now and several who don't "get it". In seeing that any future upgrades will be included (ie "full features", I can be on board with that, because as long as the service is active we are always current. But, I would still hope and pray Logos were to slow down the upgrades esp. since on the "purchase" side, it still is aggravating to a lot of people. Myself included. It won't be as bothersome to me under a subscription rate, but.. I think you know what I have to say for that end. 

Now regarding adding the Full Feature side of "purchasing", we'll see. Either way, you get paid, and I have it. So, now what I have to hope for is that this new Logos Now works out for everyone. I do think it's a HUGE compromise, and when I saw what it actually did for us (particularly constant upgrades) I was pretty sure I would go that route. 

I am once again motivated to try again to learn to maximize my usage of Logos once again. So, while I am somewhat apologetic for this thread, and the direction it went, I am thrilled that for me, anyway, the excitement over the software is back, and I don't feel like I was cheated. I can now honestly state that I do believe you are attempting to run the company in a manner that reflects God, and how God would run this business. So, to all who have felt "ripped off" or aggravated over the constant upgrades, I can only suggest giving Logos a call, and see what they can offer, esp. if you did a recent upgrade to L6. 



Batman:
When does it stop? It's never ending. 

You're talking about operating system upgrades, right? Or server patches? Or mobile phones?

Smile

Yes, it's never ending. Welcome to the technology treadmill.

It keeps changing -- for you and for us. We are going to try to keep earning more of your money. (Earning. Earning.) Because even if you never buy anything else, you're going to expect your data to sync, your purchases to easily migrate to your new machine, your app to run on the next version of Windows or OS X or your phone, your cloud-backed databases to stay available, your information not to be deleted or stolen because we failed to maintain or patch a server, or upgrade its hard drives, etc. And that costs a (surprising) amount of money to maintain -- just to keep servicing a one-time purchase.

Posts 326
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:11 PM

Thank you. You and someone else (still looking for who it was, but, I'll find them) convinced me on Logos Now. 
I think you could see that. 
Anyway, I actually called Logos, as opposed to DiY online, and found an offer I couldn't refuse, and Now is a huge part of it! 
For me, that should take away much of the frustrations on the monetary side of things. I can deal with a $100/yr subscription, but $400 every 2 years just bugs me. Even if I don't do the upgrade. The upgrade just bugs me-- unless it's part of the overall package (as in subscription). 

So, thanks. And hopefully this option will help many many people be less upset. You did awesome!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Logos Now subscription includes full Logos 7 feature set using SaaS model ($ 89.99 this year, $ 99.99 per year next year)

Thankful for Logos Now "free" previews that have included Mobile Education courses.

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:14 PM

Bob Price:
I think it actually is sustainable.  In my case, I would have to pay $300 right now to upgrade to the full feature set.  I could do that, and Faithlife would get $300 now, and nothing for a while.  If I spend that much on an upgrade every 3 years, then a Logos Now subscription is basically equivalent.  But, that assumes that my cost of upgrading remains constant, which it may not, and could even go down due to the fact that I would be doing a big upgrade now, followed by smaller ones in future years.

The cost is $300 to go from L6 Starter to Full Feature Set, so that's not gonna repeat in 2 or 3 years's time, because you'd already own every previous feature. It would rather be like upgrading from L6 Diamond to Full Feature Set. What's the cost of that?

Bob Price:
As a comparison, look at what Microsoft is doing with Office 365.  For $99 per year, you get 5 licenses for the full office suite, as well as 1 TB of online storage for each of the 5, totalling 5 TB of storage!  That's a fantastic deal, and the Office suite has far more functionality than does the Logos software.

Most users don't use a fraction of either functions or storage space. I can't remember when I last opened Access or InfoPath. For $100 you also get to own Office Home&Student, which is pretty sufficient for home use. And who installs Office 365 on more than 2 or 3 devices?

In my opinion LN Now and Office 365 are very similar in terms of value for money (in both cases rather low value...)

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:33 PM

Batman:


I am once again motivated to try again to learn to maximize my usage of Logos once again. So, while I am somewhat apologetic for this thread, and the direction it went, I am thrilled that for me, anyway, the excitement over the software is back, and I don't feel like I was cheated. I can now honestly state that I do believe you are attempting to run the company in a manner that reflects God, and how God would run this business. So, to all who have felt "ripped off" or aggravated over the constant upgrades, I can only suggest giving Logos a call, and see what they can offer, esp. if you did a recent upgrade to L6. 

I love it when scripture gets played out (kind of like when Hannibal loves it when a plan comes together). I am reminded of Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose (ESV). I'm glad it "worked out" for you, Batman. I would now encourage you to dive into the video and training blogs and, this time, don't give up or lose interest. I promise you that using Logos to "your" full extent possible (I probably only use about 30%) will keep you captivated and learning about and growing closer to God for years to come. May God bless you in this endeavor. Shalom! (or however you spell it)

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Posts 326
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 27 2016 10:38 PM

I'm reviewing this entire thread. I dont know if he ever got back to you, but, I can tell you what changed my mind. I hope it helps.
1. It's about $100/yr. As David stated that works out to about $7.50/mo. 
2. Includes Full Feature for L-7. (I'll address this point again, later.)
3. For me, it's a no-brainer. While some object to $100/yr, I do that with Amazon and HP for my ink. And more than that with Netflix. So, calculating $100/yr over the past 8 or 9 years, I would have spent far less, and would not be as bothered by the constant upgrades. 
4. Had this option been available in 2009, and I went that route, had I not liked it, and known the frustration level, I could have exited "stage left", at worst been out $100, at best, cancelled the subscription and received a pro-rated or full refund. Happiness would have followed me all the days of my life, rather than the root of bitterness. 

For kicks and giggles, I responded to an email I had previously ignored. Thanks heavily to David, but also "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus" the strong arguments for "Now" made a lot of sense, and I decided to call. I am please to say because of my purchase history and the fact I had recently upgraded to 6, I got a decent discount that I applied to Bronze and Now. With Now I will "rent" Full Features and with Bronze I will have everything else. Needless to say, to me this is the best of all possible worlds. Again, for $7.50/mo I can put the financial frustrations aside. Since upgrades should be included in the future, the constant upgrades won't seem so aggravating, because I won't be paying more and more and more. I do pray, however, Bob and the Logos team does slow down, because there is still the "purchasers" who will be frustrated still. And of course the groupies and fanboys will always be happy, regardless. 

There is the downside of renting, however. If for some reason you are unable to continue with the subscriptions, you lose everything not purchased. In my case, next year I will lose the Full Features of L7. While it may seem like "for half the cost I could have bought it, rather than rented it", I strongly disagree. The reason is, with me, perspective. I'm "renting" the library for $7.50/mo. For that fee, I get the upgrades and the Full Features "free" (or included). With "purchase" I only get what I have, and next upgrade, here we go again. 

Now, here's what I see in the future. I have a year to explore, like, hate, learn, and yell over everything 7 offers. Should my situation change, I can drop Now, and if I desire, purchase Full Features. At a discount? I don't know. But at that point, if I am happy with it, and want it, I think it's a plausible option. In the meantime, there's no reason to buy it, as I'll already have it. Right? 

The last option: Do what I planned on doing: keeping L6. In my case, I would continue to be miserable. Hopefully my misery is an isolated case, and others are much happier than me. 

Ok, hope that helps. It's honest, true and I do believe an unbiased opinion. 

Matthew:

David Betts:

For months I saved toward buying Logos 7 upon release.

I was totally uninterested in "Logos Now," and ignored it until a few days ago.

Having tried Logos Now, I am totally blown away and amazed!

Anything specific that changed your mind?

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